Popper screwed and penalty a question

[bret]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

Yes-ish

 

they should be as light as they can stay set reliably. if they are too close to the tip point then small gusts of wind will knock them over.

 

Why not set them heavy?

 

As long as sub minor ammo knocks it down,  it shouldn't matter how heavy it is set.

 

A marginal hit with minor ammo should require an extra hit on it.

 

That's not popper f*#king anyone it's recognizing their is a difference between major and minor. 

[MikeBurgess]

9 minutes ago, bret said:

Why not set them heavy?

 

As long as sub minor ammo knocks it down,  it shouldn't matter how heavy it is set.

 

A marginal hit with minor ammo should require an extra hit on it.

 

That's not popper f*#king anyone it's recognizing their is a difference between major and minor. 

because we have chrono for checking power

Holding up a stage waiting on the RM to come inspect a popper then shoot a popper then reset the popper and shoot it again because it failed then re-shoot the competitor,  all because a popper was set heavy "to test power" but then got some gunk in the hinge or settled so now its too heavy is dumb.  

 

 

[bret]

29 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

because we have chrono for checking power

Holding up a stage waiting on the RM to come inspect a popper then shoot a popper then reset the popper and shoot it again because it failed then re-shoot the competitor,  all because a popper was set heavy "to test power" but then got some gunk in the hinge or settled so now its too heavy is dumb.  

 

 

Steel is supposed to be a challenge, sorry (not really) that sometimes an edge hit, low hit or marginal hit doesn't knock it down and may require another shot.

 

I have never worry about poppers even when shooting minor.

 

Chrono just checks people "chrono" ammo.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by bret

[jmtyndall]

22 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

because we have chrono for checking power

Holding up a stage waiting on the RM to come inspect a popper then shoot a popper then reset the popper and shoot it again because it failed then re-shoot the competitor,  all because a popper was set heavy "to test power" but then got some gunk in the hinge or settled so now its too heavy is dumb.  

 

 

This is how I tend to feel about it. I'm new to the sport, but we have the technology to measure and calculate PF and it's done at the match already. Poppers aren't needed to make sure you're making PF. They should be treated as other steel.

 

If they insist on keeping poppers as some sort of method of "keeping people honest" then they ought to require calibration be done with ammo at or below the PF floor, or the popper to be shot below the calibration circle. Shooting the popper at the top of the circle with 140 PF ammo after it's already been struck once by a competitor isn't keeping anyone honest. In fact it screws over people who are following the rules because shooters are explicitly allowed to use ammo that's lower PF than the calibration ammo, plus the popper may take a different "set" after it's been struck. It's an antiquated rule from a time before chronographs. Take it behind the barn and shoot it.

[MikeBurgess]

7 minutes ago, bret said:

Steel is supposed to be a challenge, sorry (not really) that sometimes an edge hit, low hit or marginal hit doesn't knock it down and may require another shot.

 

I have never worry about poppers even when shooting minor.

 

Chrono just checks people "chrono" ammo.

 

 

Having run several L2 matches and worked several more along with some nationals, I value a well flowing match more than somebody possibly getting a edge hit to knock down a popper. I have also see where many popper designs are not as fool proof as far as needing the same energy to make them fall from shot to shot, one design in particular that has a large dia hinge pin I have seen fail to fall to good hits with good ammo many times only to fall to the calibration shot later. it seems to me that the best most fair thing is to limit that risk 

[bret]

5 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Having run several L2 matches and worked several more along with some nationals, I value a well flowing match more than somebody possibly getting a edge hit to knock down a popper. I have also see where many popper designs are not as fool proof as far as needing the same energy to make them fall from shot to shot, one design in particular that has a large dia hinge pin I have seen fail to fall to good hits with good ammo many times only to fall to the calibration shot later. it seems to me that the best most fair thing is to limit that risk 

I have seen  quite a few calibration challenges,  1/20 failed at most, they didn't stay up because bad desugn or too heavy, but marginal hits.

 

If a popper design is known to cause a problem, get rid of it.

 

R.O.'s need to manage their steel and keep it adjusted properly. 

 

A shooter can request a calibration challenge if they think it is too heavy.

 

All the calibration challenges I have seen only added a couple of minutes to the squads time, didn't slow down the match since we always had to wait on the squad ahead of us on the next stage.

[bret]

16 minutes ago, jmtyndall said:

This is how I tend to feel about it. I'm new to the sport, but we have the technology to measure and calculate PF and it's done at the match already. Poppers aren't needed to make sure you're making PF. They should be treated as other steel.

 

If they insist on keeping poppers as some sort of method of "keeping people honest" then they ought to require calibration be done with ammo at or below the PF floor, or the popper to be shot below the calibration circle. Shooting the popper at the top of the circle with 140 PF ammo after it's already been struck once by a competitor isn't keeping anyone honest. In fact it screws over people who are following the rules because shooters are explicitly allowed to use ammo that's lower PF than the calibration ammo, plus the popper may take a different "set" after it's been struck. It's an antiquated rule from a time before chronographs. Take it behind the barn and shoot it.

If the popper is shot high (above the calibration zone) and falls it is a reshoot.

 

Sub minor ammo (below 125 pf) is to be used for calibration challenges, not 140 PF.

 

Chrono only tells you what the power factor was at chrono.

[jmtyndall]

1 minute ago, bret said:

If the popper is shot high (above the calibration zone) and falls it is a reshoot.

 

Sub minor ammo (below 125 pf) is to be used for calibration challenges, not 140 PF.

 

Chrono only tells you what the power factor was at chrono.

The problem is the whole popper is a lever over the pivot point. Force applied times the distance to the pivot point is torque. As you move up and down, even within the circle, the amount of torque you put on the hinge changes. Also, high in the calibration zone and high out of the calibration zone are different things, I never suggested that calibration was being done by shooting outside the cirle. High in the calibration zone still has a longer lever-arm when compared to low in the calibration zone. The center of the calibration zone is ~5" (if you draw a straight line across the popper) to 6"(if you use the radius of the circle) higher than the center of the calibration zone. That's a 16% longer lever-arm compared to center striking the popper. Hitting the popper at the top of the circle(but still within it) with 125 PF ammo would have roughly the same effect as hitting the center of the calibration circle with 145 PF ammo. The difference between hitting the top of the circle and the bottom of the circle(but still within it) is double that, almost the difference between major and minor.

 

115-125 PF ammo is supposed to be used, debatable if it was or not. After all, the chrono only tells you what the PF was at the chrono.

[bret]

A hit anywhere in the calibration zone or lower and it falls, the challenge was not successful. 

 

Yes the chrono only tells you what the ammo was at chrono, I don't think RM's are gaming chrono like a lot of shooters do.

[jmtyndall]

1 minute ago, bret said:

A hit anywhere in the calibration zone or lower and it falls, the challenge was not successful. 

 

Yes the chrono only tells you what the ammo was at chrono, I don't think RM's are gaming chrono like a lot of shooters do.

Yes, I understand that. But it's still stupid.

 

Competitor shoots the stage which is very weird because it has a chrono right in front of a popper. Competitor center punches(we measured to the thousandth of an inch) the freshly painted popper and it does not fall. The chrono tells us the round fired was 125 PF. RM walks over and shoots the popper and hits the very top of the circle (we drew the line and he hit right on it) and the chrono tells us his ammo was 115 PF. Popper falls over. The calibration challenge is not successful. You say that's fair, the competitor is a cheater and doesn't get a reshoot. Which, in your defense, is supported by the current rule.

 

The shooter doesn't take this well. He takes all of his meticulously collected data to his college professor and crunches some numbers. The RM shot the popper with ammo that had 92% of the momentum that the competitors ammo had but the bullet impact location gave the RM's shot a 16% longer lever-arm than the competitors bullet. They do the math and find that the RM's bullet imparted 7.5% more torque to the popper than the competitors bullet did even though nobody broke any rules. According to the math that popper is calibrated too heavy. According to the rules the popper is properly calibrated. Too bad, so sad. Try again next year. 

 

The rule is dumb, we can mathematically prove that it's dumb. At the very least the calibration area should be a point located at the bottom edge of the calibration circle. Then we could do the math and see that if the popper doesn't fall then the competitor must have been using ammo with a PF under the limit. But wait there's more, that's only valid if the popper is in proper working order, hasn't shifted since it was calibrated, has no dirt in the mechanism etc. If any of that happens then the competitor's bullet could give the popper a different set, or have knocked a pebble out of the hinge or any number of other circumstances that would allow the popper to fall when struck a second time. A piece of steel is a poor way to measure the power of someones ammo. We have better ways.

[HCH]

5 pages of “how to shoot a popper”....

 

 

The popper system and calibration is pretty good as is. If you’re that worried about it, load 150 PF in your production gun and shoot all the poppers above the scoring ring. Or load 126 pf ammo and make good shots. 

[HCH]

6 minutes ago, jmtyndall said:

Yes, I understand that. But it's still stupid.

 

Competitor shoots the stage which is very weird because it has a chrono right in front of a popper. Competitor center punches(we measured to the thousandth of an inch) the freshly painted popper and it does not fall. The chrono tells us the round fired was 125 PF. RM walks over and shoots the popper and hits the very top of the circle (we drew the line and he hit right on it) and the chrono tells us his ammo was 115 PF. Popper falls over. The calibration challenge is not successful. You say that's fair, the competitor is a cheater and doesn't get a reshoot. Which, in your defense, is supported by the current rule.

 

The shooter doesn't take this well. He takes all of his meticulously collected data to his college professor and crunches some numbers. The RM shot the popper with ammo that had 92% of the momentum that the competitors ammo had but the bullet impact location gave the RM's shot a 16% longer lever-arm than the competitors bullet. They do the math and find that the RM's bullet imparted 7.5% more torque to the popper than the competitors bullet did even though nobody broke any rules. According to the math that popper is calibrated too heavy. According to the rules the popper is properly calibrated. Too bad, so sad. Try again next year. 

 

The rule is dumb, we can mathematically prove that it's dumb. At the very least the calibration area should be a point located at the bottom edge of the calibration circle. Then we could do the math and see that if the popper doesn't fall then the competitor must have been using ammo with a PF under the limit. But wait there's more, that's only valid if the popper is in proper working order, hasn't shifted since it was calibrated, has no dirt in the mechanism etc. If any of that happens then the competitor's bullet could give the popper a different set, or have knocked a pebble out of the hinge or any number of other circumstances that would allow the popper to fall when struck a second time. A piece of steel is a poor way to measure the power of someones ammo. We have better ways.

 

I guess we need to add “Match Physicist” to our list of match officials now

[bret]

 

2 minutes ago, jmtyndall said:

Yes, I understand that. But it's still stupid.

 

Competitor shoots the stage which is very weird because it has a chrono right in front of a popper. Competitor center punches(we measured to the thousandth of an inch) the freshly painted popper and it does not fall. The chrono tells us the round fired was 125 PF. RM walks over and shoots the popper and hits the very top of the circle (we drew the line and he hit right on it) and the chrono tells us his ammo was 115 PF. Popper falls over. The calibration challenge is not successful. You say that's fair, the competitor is a cheater and doesn't get a reshoot. Which, in your defense, is supported by the current rule.

 

The shooter doesn't take this well. He takes all of his meticulously collected data to his college professor and crunches some numbers. The RM shot the popper with ammo that had 92% of the momentum that the competitors ammo had but the bullet impact location gave the RM's shot a 16% longer lever-arm than the competitors bullet. They do the math and find that the RM's bullet imparted 7.5% more torque to the popper than the competitors bullet did even though nobody broke any rules. According to the math that popper is calibrated too heavy. According to the rules the popper is properly calibrated. Too bad, so sad. Try again next year. 

 

The rule is dumb, we can mathematically prove that it's dumb. At the very least the calibration area should be a point located at the bottom edge of the calibration circle. Then we could do the math and see that if the popper doesn't fall then the competitor must have been using ammo with a PF under the limit. But wait there's more, that's only valid if the popper is in proper working order, hasn't shifted since it was calibrated, has no dirt in the mechanism etc. If any of that happens then the competitor's bullet could give the popper a different set, or have knocked a pebble out of the hinge or any number of other circumstances that would allow the popper to fall when struck a second time. A piece of steel is a poor way to measure the power of someones ammo. We have better ways.

I never said the competitor was a cheater.

 

Rules on Calibration are fair, never seen a hit on the calibration Zone not knock down a popper except one time and it was set wrong, 1 time is probably 10,000 stages I have shot and watched get shot.

 

The competitor has the option to shoot the popper anywhere they want to.

 

 

I have seen a lot of edge hits, low hits or marginal hits not knock down a popper, but I have also seen a lot of low hits, edge and marginal hits knock down poppers.

 

I have also seen a lot of guys double tap a forward falling steel and they left it thinking it should have went down.

 

Steel is not used to measure power factor.

 

Steel must fall to score,  shoot it and make sure it falls, I never sweat steel even when I shoot minor.

 

If you don't like the rules contact your AD and lobby for a change to, steel must be hit or shot at in the general vicinity to count as score and if the competitor complains enough, they get to reshoot the stage until they get a score they like.

 

Put some powder in your bullets and you ain't gonna get popperf*#ked.

[HCH]

3 minutes ago, bret said:

 

 

Put some powder in your bullets and you ain't gonna get popperf*#ked.

 

But 128PF hurts my hands

[jmtyndall]

5 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

I guess we need to add “Match Physicist” to our list of match officials now

Or, and hear me out on this, change the rule to be more logical.

 

1 minute ago, bret said:

If you don't like the rules contact your AD and lobby for a change to, steel must be hit or shot at in the general vicinity to count as score and if the competitor complains enough, they get to reshoot the stage until they get a score they like.

 

Put some powder in your bullets and you ain't gonna get popperf*#ked.

Sure, argue ad absurdum that any bullet shot at a popper should count. That's not at all what I said. If you want people to put more powder in their bullets, petition your AD to make the minimum power factor 135. It's not, it's 125. A popper hit in the calibration zone with a legal round should fall. Period. Calibrate the popper however you want so long as that condition is met.

 

I'll leave this topic here, since clearly you refuse to even entertain the argument that the rule may not be perfect.

[HCH]

1 minute ago, jmtyndall said:

Or, and hear me out on this, change the rule to be more logical.

 

Sure, argue ad absurdum that any bullet shot at a popper should count. That's not at all what I said. If you want people to put more powder in their bullets, petition your AD to make the minimum power factor 135. It's not, it's 125. A popper hit in the calibration zone with a legal round should fall. Period. Calibrate the popper however you want so long as that condition is met.

 

I'll leave this topic here, since clearly you refuse to even entertain the argument that the rule may not be perfect.

 

How many times have you witnessed a popper hit in the calibration zone that did not fall, that then fell when challenged? I’m talking solid hits; not a little splash on the edge or a hit 4” below the calibration area. 

 

I’ve been shooting USPSA for 15 years and don’t recall a single one. Maybe your experience is different, but this has been mine. 

[bret]

2 hours ago, jmtyndall said:

This is how I tend to feel about it. I'm new to the sport, but we have the technology to measure and calculate PF and it's done at the match already. 

How many matches have you been at where there was a Chrono Stage?

[HoMiE]

24 minutes ago, bret said:

How many matches have you been at where there was a Chrono Stage?

Supposed to have chrono stage at level 3 and above, so unless you only shoot local matches you probably won’t see a Chrono. See chrono at sectional and state level 2 matches frequently. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by HoMiE

[bret]

Homie

 

I am aware of matches that have chrono stages and I also know how people cheat at chrono.

 

At ipsc a guy borrowed one of my 170s for chrono, after chrono he gave it back. I asked him if he needed to use it for the match, he said no I will use my other mags, they hold 1 more bullet.

 

Guys also know when their chrono ammo is going to get pulled so they make sure the "right" ammo is used on that stage.

 

Rules like chrono and calibration challenges are in favor of the shooter, the RM's and USPSA isn't out to screw over the shooter's.

[HoMiE]

8 minutes ago, bret said:

Homie

 

I am aware of matches that have chrono stages and I also know how people cheat at chrono.

 

At ipsc a guy borrowed one of my 170s for chrono, after chrono he gave it back. I asked him if he needed to use it for the match, he said no I will use my other mags, they hold 1 more bullet.

 

Guys also know when their chrono ammo is going to get pulled so they make sure the "right" ammo is used on that stage.

 

Rules like chrono and calibration challenges are in favor of the shooter, the RM's and USPSA isn't out to screw over the shooter's.

Well that’s a whole other can of worms.

 

If you suspect people are playing games with equipment or ammo, you can be chrono’d at any time if suspect. You mags can be checked at anytime.

 

 

 

 

[a matt]

I personally think most failed calibrations come from the first hit moving the popper some (not so it falls) and of course after the steel has moved it may fall with a .22 short. I have never seen a popper set on a level slab so squad after squad shooting it all day the calibration changes. I just wish we could get a reshoot if we have a full hit in the calibration zone but your rules are the same as mine and we will continue to win some and more likely lose most cal calls.  

[Gary Stevens]

IMO, a popper is simply a piece of steel that needs to be knocked down. Most popper issues are preventable. Having a squad stand around waiting on an RM to get there, RM calls can come in multiples, can severely screw up a match. Enough of them can cause a ripple effect that runs throughout the match. 

 

My my opinion based on 40 years of experience is set your poppers as light as you can get them to stand up. Keep an eye on them and correct problems before they arise.

 

Trying to run a 125 shooters or more, a day through a match is difficult enough. Causing yourself unnecessary problems should be avoided.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Gary Stevens

[PatJones]

Why not set them heavy?
 
As long as sub minor ammo knocks it down,  it shouldn't matter how heavy it is set.
 
A marginal hit with minor ammo should require an extra hit on it.
 
That's not popper f*#king anyone it's recognizing their is a difference between major and minor. 

This attitude is the the problem with popper calibration.

I made 140 power factory at Revo Nationals, and I ain't got extra rounds for another hit after I center punched your mis-set forward falling popper.

[bret]

3 minutes ago, PatJones said:

 

 

This attitude is the the problem with popper calibration.

I made 140 power factory at Revo Nationals, and I ain't got extra rounds for another hit after I center punched your mis-set forward falling popper.

 

It wasn't my popper.

 

If it was mis-set how would it being set light have made a difference? 

Edited April 5, 2019 by bret

[motosapiens]

On 4/4/2019 at 8:03 PM, Gary Stevens said:

IMO, a popper is simply a piece of steel that needs to be knocked down. Most popper issues are preventable. Having a squad stand around waiting on an RM to get there, RM calls can come in multiples, can severely screw up a match. Enough of them can cause a ripple effect that runs throughout the match. 

 

My my opinion based on 40 years of experience is set your poppers as light as you can get them to stand up. Keep an eye on them and correct problems before they arise.

 

Trying to run a 125 shooters or more, a day through a match is difficult enough. Causing yourself unnecessary problems should be avoided.

 

As usual, Gary (and mike burgess) are the voices of sanity in this thread, probably because they have long experience at putting on and working actual matches.

 

RO's: Set poppers light, check them between EVERY squad. Do your job.

Shooters: load a bit above minimum PF, aim your gun, call your shots in the calibration zone. Do your job.