Popper screwed and penalty a question

[IHAVEGAS]

You do not understand the word "cheating". That is not an attempt to be snarky, it is what it is. 

[DKorn]

39 minutes ago, bret said:

What rule said the RM can give a reshoot because he felt they were screwed?

 

it is cheating when the RM doesn't follow the rules and makes up their own rules.

 

Technically, as soon as the MD touched the popper, it was a reshoot per Appendix C1 6C. That said, the MD shouldn’t have touched it and should have followed the proper calibration procedures. 

[HCH]

18 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Technically, as soon as the MD touched the popper, it was a reshoot per Appendix C1 6C. That said, the MD shouldn’t have touched it and should have followed the proper calibration procedures. 

 

Thats what I was thinking, but we all know poppers are unfair. 

[PatJones]

 
Thats what I was thinking, but we all know poppers are unfair. 

...only if you shoot minor power factor.

[DKorn]

49 minutes ago, PatJones said:

1 hour ago, HCH said:

 
Thats what I was thinking, but we all know poppers are unfair. 

...only if you shoot minor power factor.

 

You know, I’ve only ever shot minor and never thought “Oh no! A popper! I hope I don’t get screwed on this stage!”  

[HCH]

1 minute ago, DKorn said:

 

You know, I’ve only ever shot minor and never thought “Oh no! A popper! I hope I don’t get screwed on this stage!”  

 

Reading this thread, you would think that is a common occurrence. 

[DKorn]

48 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Reading this thread, you would think that is a common occurrence. 

 

Yep. I think it’s a lot less common than people make it sound, but because it can completely ruin somebody’s match when it happens (both score-wise, and also in terms of their attitude for the day), it sticks out in people’s memories. 

 

It’s kind of like when you have a gun jam on you- your gun may have been flawless for hundreds or thousands of rounds before that, and it may have been a problem that you can definitely explain, diagnose, and fix going forward, but sometimes it sticks in your head and makes you question the reliability of your gear. Next thing you know, you just don’t prefer that gun anymore even though it’s really probably fine. 

 

I think this rule is kind of like that- it has its potential pitfalls for sure, but it works well the vast majority of the time and people forget that because all they remember are the few times it didn’t work out. 

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, PatJones said:

...only if you shoot minor power factor.

 

Sometimes you see folks shooting major miss the scoring zone with a hit that would be a low delta or maybe a mike on paper and the popper still falls, and often you see folks hit an activator right shooting minor & still need to double tap so the thing doesn't seem to take forever to fall far enough to activate. 

 

Not unfair I don't think,  just weird things about poppers. 

[Chills1994]

5 hours ago, bret said:

Another s#!tty RM/MD.

 

The people that followed the rules and made sure it fell were screwed, the RM gave you a break (nice way to say he cheated).

A'yup!

 

Yeah, totally another poopie RM/MD!

 

He should have been sent home without pay.

 

Ohhh....wait...what?

 

 

[bret]

7 hours ago, PatJones said:

8 hours ago, HCH said:

 
Thats what I was thinking, but we all know poppers are unfair. 

...only if you shoot minor power factor.

I never worry about poppers when I shoot minor.

[Thomas H]

On 4/1/2019 at 11:20 AM, DKorn said:

 

Technically, as soon as the MD touched the popper, it was a reshoot per Appendix C1 6C. That said, the MD shouldn’t have touched it and should have followed the proper calibration procedures. 

 

While I agree with this statement, it is ALSO true that if someone shoots a popper, it doesn't fall, and the shooter calls for a calibration check at the end of the course of fire---when the RM shows up, he should first take a look at the popper mechanism and such (without touching it).  Because it he can SEE an issue with the mechanism, it is a reshoot.  Calling for a calibration doesn't automatically mean that the RM _must_ shoot at it and that's it.  That's not how it works.

 

People's earlier comments about automatically stopping a shooter if a popper doesn't fall because there might be a problem with the mechanism are doing it wrong, and their subsequent statements regarding "but what if there was a mechanism problem" are ignoring how the rules are.

 

Sure, if someone can SEE a mechanism problem while the shooter is in the middle of the course of fire, the RO should call stop, fix the problem, and reshoot.  But if you don't see a problem, you don't call stop, you let the shooter finish, see if they are going to call for a calibration, and no matter what, take a look at the mechanism to see if there is a technical issue.  If there is, it is a reshoot even if there wasn't a call for calibration.  If there was, a calibration call, the RM should be looking at it prior to taking any shot.

 

Appendix C1, part 6:  "In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper (when required under 6c above), from as near as possible to the point from where the competitor shot the popper. "

 

If there is a problem with the steel, it is a reshoot.  If there isn't, then calibration shot.

 

People who are doing it differently are doing a dis-service to the shooters. 
 

As for comments regarding ROs who look at where the shot was to determine if it was "good enough" to count---if you have a squad of 15, after the first several shooters you can't really do that anymore.  So doing it that was means you are helping the first couple on the squad, and not helping the rest. 

 

Oddly enough, doing it right isn't that difficult.

[bret]

8 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

While I agree with this statement, it is ALSO true that if someone shoots a popper, it doesn't fall, and the shooter calls for a calibration check at the end of the course of fire---when the RM shows up, he should first take a look at the popper mechanism and such (without touching it).  Because it he can SEE an issue with the mechanism, it is a reshoot.  Calling for a calibration doesn't automatically mean that the RM _must_ shoot at it and that's it.  That's not how it works.

 

People's earlier comments about automatically stopping a shooter if a popper doesn't fall because there might be a problem with the mechanism are doing it wrong, and their subsequent statements regarding "but what if there was a mechanism problem" are ignoring how the rules are.

 

Sure, if someone can SEE a mechanism problem while the shooter is in the middle of the course of fire, the RO should call stop, fix the problem, and reshoot.  But if you don't see a problem, you don't call stop, you let the shooter finish, see if they are going to call for a calibration, and no matter what, take a look at the mechanism to see if there is a technical issue.  If there is, it is a reshoot even if there wasn't a call for calibration.  If there was, a calibration call, the RM should be looking at it prior to taking any shot.

 

Appendix C1, part 6:  "In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper (when required under 6c above), from as near as possible to the point from where the competitor shot the popper. "

 

If there is a problem with the steel, it is a reshoot.  If there isn't, then calibration shot.

 

People who are doing it differently are doing a dis-service to the shooters. 
 

As for comments regarding ROs who look at where the shot was to determine if it was "good enough" to count---if you have a squad of 15, after the first several shooters you can't really do that anymore.  So doing it that was means you are helping the first couple on the squad, and not helping the rest. 

 

Oddly enough, doing it right isn't that difficult.

Calling it a disservice to shooters is a nice way of saying cheating. 

 

Bottom line, it is cheating when the rules are not folliwed. 

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

While I agree with this statement, it is ALSO true that if someone shoots a popper, it doesn't fall, and the shooter calls for a calibration check at the end of the course of fire---when the RM shows up, he should first take a look at the popper mechanism and such (without touching it).  Because it he can SEE an issue with the mechanism, it is a reshoot.  Calling for a calibration doesn't automatically mean that the RM _must_ shoot at it and that's it.  That's not how it works.

 

People's earlier comments about automatically stopping a shooter if a popper doesn't fall because there might be a problem with the mechanism are doing it wrong, and their subsequent statements regarding "but what if there was a mechanism problem" are ignoring how the rules are.

 

Sure, if someone can SEE a mechanism problem while the shooter is in the middle of the course of fire, the RO should call stop, fix the problem, and reshoot.  But if you don't see a problem, you don't call stop, you let the shooter finish, see if they are going to call for a calibration, and no matter what, take a look at the mechanism to see if there is a technical issue.  If there is, it is a reshoot even if there wasn't a call for calibration.  If there was, a calibration call, the RM should be looking at it prior to taking any shot.

 

Appendix C1, part 6:  "In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper (when required under 6c above), from as near as possible to the point from where the competitor shot the popper. "

 

If there is a problem with the steel, it is a reshoot.  If there isn't, then calibration shot.

 

I like this line of logic - if there’s a visible issue with the target or activator mechanism then it should be considered range equipment failure and a calibration shot isn’t needed - and it seems well supported by App. C1 Part 6. 

 

I think people probably overlook that phrase in the appendix because it isn’t explicitly spelled out as clearly as maybe it could be. It essentially says: “If nobody interferes with the target and there’s no problem with the mechanism, do a calibration shot.” but doesn’t actually say what to do if there is a problem with the mechanism. The natural answer is REF, but if it stated as much in the appendix the answer might be more clear. 

[mreed911]

2 hours ago, Thomas H said:

if you have a squad of 15, after the first several shooters you can't really do that anymore

 

You can if you're painting steel after each shooter.

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, mreed911 said:

 

You can if you're painting steel after each shooter.

 

Yes, that would be part of my point---the people claiming this are doing so while ALSO saying that their local matches don't paint after every shooter. 

 

At our club, we paint after every shooter, so we don't have this problem.  We also have a dedicated calibration gun and ammo that is periodically chrono-checked and is consistently between 116-118 PF out of that gun.  We also calibrate the steel before the match.  In the last year, we've had exactly one calibration check fail, if I recall correctly.  (After which we traded out that steel, because the notch for the hook was so deep, it would only work correctly if set a certain precise way---it was just easier to trade it out.)  And we hardly ever have any calibration checks that aren't obvious low or edge hits.  (Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think so.)

 

Maybe we are just lucky?

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Maybe we are just lucky?

 

maybe your ground is harder than ours. Most of our bays are a gravelly surface that starts to get chewed up after a few squads have shot a popper. between the bullet fragments hitting the ground around the front feet, and the weight of the large poppers smashing the rear feet into the ground, they poppers have to be checked between squads if you want to not have issues.

[Gary Stevens]

During the walk thru I walk around any poppers and look at them. Is there an excessive lean in it, we all know how a popper looks when it is too far forward. Are the lock nuts backed out? Any thing else that looks strange. If I see something I point it out to the CRO.

 

i was shooting Production in South Carolina once. While looking at the poppers I noticed one that was leaning way forward. It had settled in the sandy soil. I pointed it out to the CRO and requested a calibration. The RM was called, popper failed the calibration, they fixed it, and I then shot the course.

 

Problem  solved before it reared its ugly head.

[DKorn]

7 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

During the walk thru I walk around any poppers and look at them. Is there an excessive lean in it, we all know how a popper looks when it is too far forward. Are the lock nuts backed out? Any thing else that looks strange. If I see something I point it out to the CRO.

 

i was shooting Production in South Carolina once. While looking at the poppers I noticed one that was leaning way forward. It had settled in the sandy soil. I pointed it out to the CRO and requested a calibration. The RM was called, popper failed the calibration, they fixed it, and I then shot the course.

 

Problem  solved before it reared its ugly head.

 

As a shooter, it’s probably not a bad idea to check out the steel during the walkthrough to avoid issues. 

 

As an RO, it’s my responsibility (2.3.7) to check them so that you dont have to, and so that you can avoid wasting part of your 5 minutes. 

[Gary Stevens]

1 hour ago, DKorn said:

 

As a shooter, it’s probably not a bad idea to check out the steel during the walkthrough to avoid issues. 

 

As an RO, it’s my responsibility (2.3.7) to check them so that you dont have to, and so that you can avoid wasting part of your 5 minutes. 

 

You are 100 percent correct, good for you. I just try to help them out in case in the heat of the moment they overlooked something. Heat, cold, rain, etc. can cause us all to become imperfect humans at times.

[regor]

Since the rulebook's guidelines for calibration lay out that the popper needs to fall when hit with 115-125PF ammo when hit in the calibration zone from the furthest place in the COF it can be shot from, but doesn't specify that it should not fall when hit below the calibration zone, is it best to just always setup poppers so that they are just on the edge of being able to stand on their own? 

[DKorn]

21 minutes ago, regor said:

Since the rulebook's guidelines for calibration lay out that the popper needs to fall when hit with 115-125PF ammo when hit in the calibration zone from the furthest place in the COF it can be shot from, but doesn't specify that it should not fall when hit below the calibration zone, is it best to just always setup poppers so that they are just on the edge of being able to stand on their own? 

 

Pretty much. As light as possible while still being easy to set up and not being blown down by the wind. If you set them too light then you end up either having to stop shooters during make ready to set poppers back up again or with reshoots when they fall down prematurely. 

[Thomas H]

21 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

maybe your ground is harder than ours. Most of our bays are a gravelly surface that starts to get chewed up after a few squads have shot a popper. between the bullet fragments hitting the ground around the front feet, and the weight of the large poppers smashing the rear feet into the ground, they poppers have to be checked between squads if you want to not have issues.

 

We have gravel-over-dirt and in the rainy season, they get pretty mucky.  But since we also don't just set them up at the beginning of the match and then never look at them again, we tend to notice when they start to get "off."  We check them periodically, including when new squads get to that bay.  It isn't like it takes much extra time, and some people generally don't need the full 5 minutes, so it isn't a problem.

When we host a level II match, we put sheets of plywood underneath them, and spike them to the ground through the plywood, which works great in terms of keeping them level and stable.

[MemphisMechanic]

22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

maybe your ground is harder than ours. Most of our bays are a gravelly surface that starts to get chewed up after a few squads have shot a popper.

 

This. Additionally, some of our stage designers don’t stake them down - we seem to have pesky gnomes running around Monday through Friday stealing the stakes we used for the last match. They get replaced often, but still always seem to be in short supply.

 

Quote

poppers have to be checked between squads if you want to not have issues.

 

This, too. When my squad walks into the bay to begin walkthrough, it’s standard practice to walk behind the stage looking for hidden targets. I usually give the poppers a quick glance to make sure the frames look level, too, and adjust them if necessary.

 

(Especially because our poppers are the much-maligned forward falling type.)

 

If I were working a major, as a non-aashole kind of RO, I’d be checking/adjusting my steel targets between squads just as DNROI instructed match officials to do in that multibrief last year. That’s an important part of your job and it seems too many ROs at Level II+ had the mindset that “thou shalt not touch a popper adjustment until someome fails to drop it, and requests calibration.”

 

Thus I’m not trying to gain some sort of advantage when tweaking a heavy popper at a local. Your squad is composed of their own timekeepers and ROs at locals, and that’s what I’d be doing for every shooter if I were a static RO working that bay.

 

A centerpunched popper that doesn’t fall from a hit with 125.001 PF ammo with a wet and gritty hinge? That is a failure of the match officials to maintain the stage properly, regardless of what the rulebook says.

 

I just wish more people had this mindset.

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, regor said:

Since the rulebook's guidelines for calibration lay out that the popper needs to fall when hit with 115-125PF ammo when hit in the calibration zone from the furthest place in the COF it can be shot from, but doesn't specify that it should not fall when hit below the calibration zone, is it best to just always setup poppers so that they are just on the edge of being able to stand on their own? 

Yes-ish

 

they should be as light as they can stay set reliably. if they are too close to the tip point then small gusts of wind will knock them over.

 

[Thomas H]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

[snip a bunch of good, sensible things]

 

I just wish more people had this mindset.

 

 

Agreed.  It isn't hard, nor does it take much time, to just do it right.