Popper screwed and penalty a question

[a matt]

You shoot the activator popper it does not fall but you have already transitioned to the other side of the course for a target the popper would activate, if I put a round where the activated target would be if activated, do I still get the fte penalty with the mikes?  I am driving so I cannot proofread Thanks

[driver8M3]

Yes, you get the miss penalties and the FTSA procedural if the moving target is not activated.

 

9.9.3

[HoMiE]

Should be REF if you hit the popper. 

[kpbaer]

Why would it be REF ?

Where was it hit?

[DKorn]

5 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Should be REF if you hit the popper. 

 

Nope. It’s a calibration call, if you left visible evidence of a hit on the popper and ask for calibration. 

 

If the popper fails calibration, you get a reshoot. 

 

If the popper passes calibration, then you get a miss on the popper, plus FTSA penalties and miss penalties on any targets that you didn’t activate, per rule 9.9.3. Note that in the case you get miss penalties and FTSAs even if the activated target would be disappearing and normally not incur those penalties. 

[HoMiE]

2 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Nope. It’s a calibration call, if you left visible evidence of a hit on the popper and ask for calibration. 

 

If the popper fails calibration, you get a reshoot. 

 

If the popper passes calibration, then you get a miss on the popper, plus FTSA penalties and miss penalties on any targets that you didn’t activate, per rule 9.9.3. Note that in the case you get miss penalties and FTSAs even if the activated target would be disappearing and normally not incur those penalties. 

Seen way too many poppers not fall when used as activators. I know we have a popper calibration rule, but if I’m RO and I see a good hit and popper is at beginning of a stage run, I’m going to call STOP and check popper instead of having the shooter run the whole stage. I think that’s most equitable to the shooter and the rest of the competitors. 

[HoMiE]

7 minutes ago, kpbaer said:

Why would it be REF ?

Where was it hit?

If you see a hit in the proper calibration or even highchit in head and it doesn’t activate, prop could be setup wrong, seen breakaway sticks in wrong orientation, not enough slack in cable, etc. The scoring RO should be watching for a good hit and make that judgement call. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, HoMiE said:

Seen way too many poppers not fall when used as activators. I know we have a popper calibration rule, but if I’m RO and I see a good hit and popper is at beginning of a stage run, I’m going to call STOP and check popper instead of having the shooter run the whole stage. I think that’s most equitable to the shooter and the rest of the competitors. 

 

The draw back to that is when other locals go off to a big match there going to be pissed when it doesn't work the way they think it does. You're better off following the rules, even if they don't make sense.

 

For the shooter, sometimes it's actually better to watch the steel fall as opposed to just calling a good shot and leaving. Especially if you're shooting minor at a big popper that activates something far away. Waiting a half second likely wont cost you much over the whole match, two mikes and a FTE will cost you a lot.

[DKorn]

5 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Seen way too many poppers not fall when used as activators. I know we have a popper calibration rule, but if I’m RO and I see a good hit and popper is at beginning of a stage run, I’m going to call STOP and check popper instead of having the shooter run the whole stage. I think that’s most equitable to the shooter and the rest of the competitors. 

 

As much as I’d love it if they change the rules to that, it’s not the way the rules currently say to handle it. While I won’t go out of my way to screw people over, as an RO I feel it’s my responsibility to make calls per the rules even if I disagree with them. This helps ensure that people have a consistent experience regardless of where they shoot. 

 

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

The draw back to that is when other locals go off to a big match there going to be pissed when it doesn't work the way they think it does. You're better off following the rules, even if they don't make sense.

 

For the shooter, sometimes it's actually better to watch the steel fall as opposed to just calling a good shot and leaving. Especially if you're shooting minor at a big popper that activates something far away. Waiting a half second likely wont cost you much over the whole match, two mikes and a FTE will cost you a lot.

 

Rather than waiting, you could also consider driving down the popper with 2 rounds, if it’s a rearward falling popper. Don’t do this on a forward falling one... you’ll just piss yourself off. 

[HoMiE]

10 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

As much as I’d love it if they change the rules to that, it’s not the way the rules currently say to handle it. While I won’t go out of my way to screw people over, as an RO I feel it’s my responsibility to make calls per the rules even if I disagree with them. This helps ensure that people have a consistent experience regardless of where they shoot. 

 

 

Rather than waiting, you could also consider driving down the popper with 2 rounds, if it’s a rearward falling popper. Don’t do this on a forward falling one... you’ll just piss yourself off. 

I get that we have rules for popper calibration but I see it more as range equipment failure when a popper is used as a prop to activate some other mechanical swinger, drop turner, etc. That’s why I say the RO should be watching to make sure the prop is reset correctly, the prop will activate when hit, then if they see a hit and it doesn’t activate call Stop for REf. 

 

Why should a shooter have to stand there and shoot it multiple times or stand and wait to make sure it falls if they hit it in calibration zone or higher?

[Sarge]

27 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Seen way too many poppers not fall when used as activators. I know we have a popper calibration rule, but if I’m RO and I see a good hit and popper is at beginning of a stage run, I’m going to call STOP and check popper instead of having the shooter run the whole stage. I think that’s most equitable to the shooter and the rest of the competitors. 

That is a blatant bad call. A popper not falling wh n hit is clearly not REF. Doing it this way is about as inequitable as possible

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

I get that we have rules. 

 

Why should a shooter have to stand there and shoot it multiple times or stand and wait to make sure it falls if they hit it in calibration zone or higher?

Because we have rules?

[HoMiE]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

That is a blatant bad call. A popper not falling wh n hit is clearly not REF. Doing it this way is about as inequitable as possible

I think it can be REF is the say cable got caught on a stake (seen that happen before) and it stopped say a forward falling popper from falling because not enough slack. The RO needs to make a judgement call to make sure something prevented it from falling from s good hit. If that was the case I’d call it REF and issue a reshoot. 

[amokscience]

At a local I'm going to fix the issue and explain what the correct call is. It's a good balance of getting on with the match and lack of diligence exhibited by ROs at locals vs making sure people know what the rulebook says. At a major this should be vetted out by staff and then you follow the calibration procedure if the shooter desires. 

[RJH]

40 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

I think it can be REF is the say cable got caught on a stake (seen that happen before) and it stopped say a forward falling popper from falling because not enough slack. The RO needs to make a judgement call to make sure something prevented it from falling from s good hit. If that was the case I’d call it REF and issue a reshoot. 

 

 

If that is the case then i won't fall at calibration either and the competitor gets his reshoot. Maybe it didn't fall cause the competitor was shooting sub minor ammo. How is it fair to all the other shooters to give him a reshoot he may not have deserved.  Please just follow the rulebook

[HCH]

1 hour ago, a matt said:

You shoot the activator popper it does not fall but you have already transitioned to the other side of the course for a target the popper would activate, if I put a round where the activated target would be if activated, do I still get the fte penalty with the mikes?  I am driving so I cannot proofread Thanks

 

3 mike 

1 FTSA

[bret]

1 hour ago, HoMiE said:

Seen way too many poppers not fall when used as activators. I know we have a popper calibration rule, but if I’m RO and I see a good hit and popper is at beginning of a stage run, I’m going to call STOP and check popper instead of having the shooter run the whole stage. I think that’s most equitable to the shooter and the rest of the competitors. 

That is a bulls#!t call.

 

It is not equitable or fair to other shooters since other r.o.'s aren't making up their own rules and you have no idea the power factor of the shooters ammo.

[bret]

2 hours ago, a matt said:

You shoot the activator popper it does not fall but you have already transitioned to the other side of the course for a target the popper would activate, if I put a round where the activated target would be if activated, do I still get the fte penalty with the mikes?  I am driving so I cannot proofread Thanks

You get the Mike on steel.

 

FTSA on the moving target that wasn't activated and the Mike's. 

 

Shooting at the area the target would be if activated is not shooting at the target.

 

Call for calibration if it stays up, reshoot, if it falls, scored as shot.

[HoMiE]

14 minutes ago, bret said:

That is a bulls#!t call.

 

It is not equitable or fair to other shooters since other r.o.'s aren't making up their own rules and you have no idea the power factor of the shooters ammo.

I know the OP didn’t state this is question but say you’re RO’ing this stage, you see shooter hit popper and make goodnhit. Shooters runs off to next position and you notice activator stick is stuck or wrong position and say cable stopped popper from falling and it rocked back and didn’t fall. As an RO you would not say stop for REF? Power factor aside, I know we have power factor rules and process for calibration but every local match I’ve been too has never provided a match gun and match ammo. As a competitor I get screwed at local matches because is shoot 126pf ammo and when I ask for calibration someone steps up with WWB which makes 140pf and popper falls on calibration. So yeah someone will say well don’t shoot 126pf ammo but that’s allowed in the rules too. So if you see a problem with a popper setup as a stage prop shouldn’t you stop it before the shooter gets a practice run on the stage?  If I see an edge or low hit, I’m not inclined to stop shooter but if I see a problem I’ll stop them, fix issues with activation prop and continue. 

[mreed911]

10 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

As an RO you would not say stop for REF?

 

No, because that's not what the rules allow.  AFTER the course of fire is complete the target can be inspected and shot for calibration.

 

If you can see clear equipment failure that's one thing - if you see a hit and it doesn't fall, that's not automatically REF and it's up to the shooter to decide what to do (which should almost always be ask for an inspection and calibration shot).

 

Didn't fall = automatic REF is a gross violation of USPSA rules and absolutely not equitable.

[bret]

19 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

I know the OP didn’t state this is question but say you’re RO’ing this stage, you see shooter hit popper and make goodnhit. Shooters runs off to next position and you notice activator stick is stuck or wrong position and say cable stopped popper from falling and it rocked back and didn’t fall. As an RO you would not say stop for REF? Power factor aside, I know we have power factor rules and process for calibration but every local match I’ve been too has never provided a match gun and match ammo. As a competitor I get screwed at local matches because is shoot 126pf ammo and when I ask for calibration someone steps up with WWB which makes 140pf and popper falls on calibration. So yeah someone will say well don’t shoot 126pf ammo but that’s allowed in the rules too. So if you see a problem with a popper setup as a stage prop shouldn’t you stop it before the shooter gets a practice run on the stage?  If I see an edge or low hit, I’m not inclined to stop shooter but if I see a problem I’ll stop them, fix issues with activation prop and continue. 

adding a lot of if's in this, if my aunt had a dick she would be my uncle.

I suggest following the rule book.

[NickBlasta]

2 hours ago, bret said:

Shooting at the area the target would be if activated is not shooting at the target.

 

Since the justification there is arguable, just use the rule-

 

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement before the last shot is fired in a course of fire.  This includes no- shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them.  Penalties are based on number of shots required for the moving scoring target or the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

 

You get a FTSA regardless of whether you shot at it or not and mikes regardless of whether you hit it or not (say it's visible when set and you put rounds on it but don't activate it, for example).

[a matt]

7 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

Nope. It’s a calibration call, if you left visible evidence of a hit on the popper and ask for calibration. 

 

If the popper fails calibration, you get a reshoot. 

 

If the popper passes calibration, then you get a miss on the popper, plus FTSA penalties and miss penalties on any targets that you didn’t activate, per rule 9.9.3. Note that in the case you get miss penalties and FTSAs even if the activated target would be disappearing and normally not incur those penalties. 

Thanks, I missed most of the 9.9’s Going back now to check if I missed it because it’s only available online and I swiped and skipped the entire page. 

[HoMiE]

4 hours ago, bret said:

adding a lot of if's in this, if my aunt had a dick she would be my uncle.

I suggest following the rule book.

Yes, like I stated, I added additional what if that the OP didn’t state trying to give a perspective maybe to consider. 

I get the rules and agree it should be 3 misses and 1 ftsa. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, HoMiE said:

Yes, like I stated, I added additional what if that the OP didn’t state trying to give a perspective maybe to consider. 

I get the rules and agree it should be 3 misses and 1 ftsa. 

It’s hard to catch but I agree if I’m running a shooter and happen to notice a popper gets hung up on a tight cable Or a cable he’s caught on a bolt I would stop them. But like I said that really takes a keen eye.