Popper screwed and penalty a question

[HCH]

29 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

As usual, Gary (and mike burgess) are the voices of sanity in this thread, probably because they have long experience at putting on and working actual matches.

 

RO's: Set poppers light, check them between EVERY squad. Do your job.

Shooters: load a bit above minimum PF, aim your gun, call your shots in the calibration zone. Do your job.

 

NO!! That’s not fair and I want my participation ribbon!!

 

Edited: Only to highlight that we are now on page six of “How to Shoot and Set a Popper”

Edited April 8, 2019 by HCH

[Chills1994]

On 4/4/2019 at 4:01 PM, MikeBurgess said:

<snip>... but then got some gunk in the hinge or settled so now its too heavy is dumb.  ...</snip>

 

 

 

gunk?

 

a.k.a. "wooden shoes"

 

a.k.a. the french term "sabot"

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, Chills1994 said:

 

gunk?

 

a.k.a. "wooden shoes"

 

a.k.a. the french term "sabot"

gunk

as in sand or bullet fragments or a rock or whatever

[Chills1994]

1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said:

gunk

as in sand or bullet fragments or a rock or whatever

Oh...I get what you're saying.

 

I'm saying I wouldn't put it past one of "your" fellow competitors to kick some gravel under the hinge as everybody else is forward resetting steel and taping targets as you're in the shooting "box" getting your mental game together (and not watching the steel get reset).

 

 

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

On 4/4/2019 at 10:03 PM, Gary Stevens said:

 

Trying to run a 125 shooters or more, a day through a match is difficult enough. Causing yourself unnecessary problems should be avoided.

 

Anyone remember which major match it was where some squads had 5 or more reshoots and folks were running out of ammo/sharing ammo to get through? 

 

Heard the story from one of the shooters but forgot which match he said it was and whether it was wind or equipment or both.

[DKorn]

Had some interesting popper experiences Friday, as well as my first time having to call for calibration (twice). 

 

First run on a stage, call my shots well on some poppers and leave them without waiting to see them start to move because they were falling really slowly. Get to the end of the stage and after “range is clear” I hear one of the ROs say “Nobody touch that!” Turns out I left a popper up with a dead center hit in the calibration zone. Immediately I ask for calibration. Range Master looks at the popper, sees that it is reset incorrectly (these were forward falling poppers with the hook thing at the bottom), tells me it’s a reshoot for REF. 

 

Reload, get ready, shoot it again. This time I hit the popper about a foot, maybe a bit more, below the calibration zone, and it doesn’t fall. Call for calibration again even though I expect to lose, and of course it goes down easily when the RM shoots it dead center. 

 

Some people would claim to have been “popper f’d” on that stage. I’d say I got the score I earned since I hit it way too low. 

 

 

Next day, was taking to the CRO on the stage I was working about it and he told me a story about a shooter who hit a popper 5-6 times before it went down, complained about it a ton (yelling at staff to such a degree that he almost earned himself a 10.6), and then went sub-minor at chrono! 

[GrumpyOne]

15 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Next day, was taking to the CRO on the stage I was working about it and he told me a story about a shooter who hit a popper 5-6 times before it went down, complained about it a ton (yelling at staff to such a degree that he almost earned himself a 10.6), and then went sub-minor at chrono! 

Karma gets everyone eventually.

[IHAVEGAS]

6 hours ago, DKorn said:

Some people would claim to have been “popper f’d” on that stage.

 

That is one reason why it is always worthwhile to paint poppers (in my opinion), if it is clear that you hit below the scoring zone there is no opportunity to think that the popper did not react correctly. 

[DKorn]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

That is one reason why it is always worthwhile to paint poppers (in my opinion), if it is clear that you hit below the scoring zone there is no opportunity to think that the popper did not react correctly. 

 

I mean, if you don’t realize that you hit it low and leave it, then you can still challenge the calibration, even though you’ll probably lose. You might get lucky though. 

[Blueridge]

There is another issue that might be the problem. The shooters ammunition might not be loaded sufficiently to knock down the popper even if it hits the "proper" calibration area.

 

While the issue is more often the popper calibration, it can be the shooters ammunition.

[IHAVEGAS]

14 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

I mean, if you don’t realize that you hit it low and leave it, then you can still challenge the calibration, even though you’ll probably lose. You might get lucky though. 

 

Agreed, what I meant to imply was that with a fresh painted popper you will see the low hit and that will make it unreasonable to feel any butt hurt. 

 

Personally I have only asked for a challenge when I had a hit in the calibration zone, but as you noted a person could challenge a low hit if they wished. 

[Talon75]

On 3/29/2019 at 1:47 PM, HCH said:

 

3 mike 

1 FTSA

Actually

3 Mike

1 FTSA

1 Failure to Activate.

 

[ima45dv8]

42 minutes ago, Talon75 said:

1 Failure to Activate.

I couldn't locate that in the rulebook.

Could you please provide a reference?

[Talon75]

Well I can't find it either, but failure to activate is a procedural penalty, and it would seem to fit the description.

[DKorn]

6 hours ago, Talon75 said:

Well I can't find it either, but failure to activate is a procedural penalty, and it would seem to fit the description.

 

If you can’t find it in the rulebook then it isn’t a procedural penalty. You can’t apply any penalty that you can’t back up with a rule. 

[Sarge]

9.9.3 talks about failing to activate. But all it says is it’s Mikes and FTSA.

[broadside72]

In this particular case in the OP, why would anyone not throw another round or to at the popper? If you finish the stage and call for calibration and lose you are down a bunch of points.

If it was an individual popper then sure, you can try to game it for the reshoot, but it's an activator here that has big impact on your stage score.

[racerba]

8 hours ago, Talon75 said:

Well I can't find it either, but failure to activate is a procedural penalty, and it would seem to fit the description.

failure to activate is not a procedural penalty...

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

In this particular case in the OP, why would anyone not throw another round or to at the popper? If you finish the stage and call for calibration and lose you are down a bunch of points.

If it was an individual popper then sure, you can try to game it for the reshoot, but it's an activator here that has big impact on your stage score.

 

I’d think it depends on the stage - if the steel activates stuff that I’m going to shoot from the same spot then I’d probably shoot it again, thinking that maybe I hit it low or edged it (I’m not looking for the hit itself on the clock). If it activates stuff that’s available at a different spot, and you know for sure you hit it and have already left the position and moved on... then your run is screwed either way, so you might as well hope for the reshoot I guess. 

[broadside72]

54 minutes ago, racerba said:

failure to activate is not a procedural penalty...

 

it is if you don't activate before the last shot in the COF

2.1.8.5 lets you shoot an activated target if you can see any part of it prior to activation, but 9.9.3 requires that it be activated before last shot

[ima45dv8]

Quote

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement before the last shot is fired in a course of fire.

 

Yes, 9.9.3 does require the target to be activated, but it's stating that failure to do so results in FTSA and Mike penalties. 

It says nothing (nor does anything else in the rulebook) about a penalty called, "Failure to Activate".

 

[Talon75]

How do you not get a failure to activate when the moving target/ no shoot was not activated??? 9.9.3 is (as I understand) direction on how to score the paper, not a release from a failure to activate. While my case is very weak as it is not explicit in the rule book, why would there even be a failure to activate, which I've seen on every scoring tablet I have handled? 

[DKorn]

17 minutes ago, Talon75 said:

How do you not get a failure to activate when the moving target/ no shoot was not activated??? 9.9.3 is (as I understand) direction on how to score the paper, not a release from a failure to activate. While my case is very weak as it is not explicit in the rule book, why would there even be a failure to activate, which I've seen on every scoring tablet I have handled? 

 

Again, just because PractiScore has it in their options doesn’t mean it’s actually in the rules. 

 

I would say that the failure to activate penalty is probably in there for rule 9.9.4. Does PractiScore say what rule the penalty is supposed to be for? I’m not seeing “failure to activate” if I go to what if a score in the PractiScore Competitor app and I don’t have a tablet handy. 

[racerba]

25 minutes ago, Talon75 said:

How do you not get a failure to activate when the moving target/ no shoot was not activated???

because there is no penalty to be given for such inaction...

[racerba]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

 

it is if you don't activate before the last shot in the COF

2.1.8.5 lets you shoot an activated target if you can see any part of it prior to activation, but 9.9.3 requires that it be activated before last shot

no...

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement before the last shot is fired in a course of fire.

 

9.9.3 only states that the FTSA penalty will be incurred on the moving target if the activator was shot last.  prior to the last shot means that the last shot may be shot at the moving target even though it's a miss.  therefore will not receive the FTSA penalty.  You can still use the last shot to activate the target, but you will get the FTSA penalty on the moving target.