Popper screwed and penalty a question

[Chili]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Crew should have been watching how poppers were acting. But for some reason you lost a calibration call with steel set that heavy? 

 

To be clear in my case the popper was not an activator.  To add insult to injury the RM didn't have a calibration gun handy so I agreed to let him calibrate with my gun, kicked in the nads by my own equipment and ammo lol.

[RJH]

28 minutes ago, Chili said:

 

To be clear in my case the popper was not an activator.  To add insult to injury the RM didn't have a calibration gun handy so I agreed to let him calibrate with my gun, kicked in the nads by my own equipment and ammo lol.

 

Perhaps you had a light charge when you were shooting the stage, that actually did go sub minor?  It could definitely happen, especially if your gun/ammo knocked it over on the calibration

[Sarge]

37 minutes ago, Chili said:

 

To be clear in my case the popper was not an activator.  To add insult to injury the RM didn't have a calibration gun handy so I agreed to let him calibrate with my gun, kicked in the nads by my own equipment and ammo lol.

Sorry but I Laughed a little at that too. That really sucks!

[Steve RA]

Yes, that is really a heavy burden to bear !!!     

[IHAVEGAS]

In honor of this thread I hit a popper on the right edge of the scoring zone today, called it and heard the hit, started to move away and came back to it when it didn't fall. Not a big deal, probably cost me about the same in hf as taking the mike would have.

[Chili]

52 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Perhaps you had a light charge when you were shooting the stage, that actually did go sub minor?  It could definitely happen, especially if your gun/ammo knocked it over on the calibration

 

Not very likely, my ammo is usually spot on and always chrono's in the same 1-2 PF range.  the vast majority of the time in these cases the first hit on the popper moves it enough that any hit at all a second time and it goes, unfortunately for me on this one I called my shot good and moved on turning away from it so never realized it was standing until we went to score.

[HCH]

18 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

Why can't USPSA HQ just change the rule so that an evidently hit popper (in the calibration zone) that doesn't fall = an automatic reshoot ?

 

We have been talking people getting "popper screwed" since at least 2007 or 2008?

 

As has been said, level 1 matches aren’t REQUIRED to paint after each shooter. Also, unpainted steel is NOT grounds for a reshoot. 

 

Making poppers act the the same as plates opens a whole new issue... what if the previous shooter hits it in the head with a 180PF .45 load and you hit it in the base with a 115 PF 9mm, and nobody painted the steel between shooters? You get a reshoot for hitting it entirely out of the scoring zone, because the RO can’t tell which hit was yours?

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Chili said:

 

Not very likely, my ammo is usually spot on and always chrono's in the same 1-2 PF range.  the vast majority of the time in these cases the first hit on the popper moves it enough that any hit at all a second time and it goes, unfortunately for me on this one I called my shot good and moved on turning away from it so never realized it was standing until we went to score.

 

But you don't really know, and that is why poppers are what they are, and why they should stay that way.  My two cents anyway.

[Chills1994]

2 hours ago, HCH said:

 

As has been said, level 1 matches aren’t REQUIRED to paint after each shooter. Also, unpainted steel is NOT grounds for a reshoot. 

 

Making poppers act the the same as plates opens a whole new issue... what if the previous shooter hits it in the head with a 180PF .45 load and you hit it in the base with a 115 PF 9mm, and nobody painted the steel between shooters? You get a reshoot for hitting it entirely out of the scoring zone, because the RO can’t tell which hit was yours?

go back and read that part I put in  parentheses.

 

Really, as a former match director, all this rule would want me to do is use the club's money to buy 12" diameter plates instead of pepper poppers and leave the activation of moving targets to some other device or mechanism.  Just  so I could avoid this situation and any headaches.

 

All steel (plates) must fall to score is a pretty simple rule to follow.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

10 hours ago, Sarge said:

Well a few things come to mind. At Level I matches(99+% of all matches)painting is not required after each shooter. That would need changed in the rules. Also, it opens the door to cheating by running ammo that does not meet PF requirements. Lastly getting popper boned is not nearly as common as some would lead us to believe. Sure, it has happened and if you were the victim then it must suck. You probably think it needs to change. But in 10 years I have personally never had it happen to me nor have I witnessed it from the local level up to Level III. 

It's called salience bias.

 

Kinda like jet liner crashes.

 

They are quite infrequent, but when they do happen, it is all over the news.

 

 

[HoMiE]

12 hours ago, Sarge said:

Well a few things come to mind. At Level I matches(99+% of all matches)painting is not required after each shooter. That would need changed in the rules. Also, it opens the door to cheating by running ammo that does not meet PF requirements. Lastly getting popper boned is not nearly as common as some would lead us to believe. Sure, it has happened and if you were the victim then it must suck. You probably think it needs to change. But in 10 years I have personally never had it happen to me nor have I witnessed it from the local level up to Level III. 

Happens every weekend at plenty of clubs. Here is major power factor open gun getting screwed. 

 

 

 

[HCH]

2 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

go back and read that part I put in  parentheses.

 

Really, as a former match director, all this rule would want me to do is use the club's money to buy 12" diameter plates instead of pepper poppers and leave the activation of moving targets to some other device or mechanism.  Just  so I could avoid this situation and any headaches.

 

All steel (plates) must fall to score is a pretty simple rule to follow.

 

 

 

Because level 1 matches aren’t required to paint steel between shooters and unpainted targets are not grounds for a reshoot??

 

Plates must fall if hit. And if a competitor hits the stand and the plate falls, the RO should call for a reshoot. 

 

and I have been hosed by the whole “steel must fall to score” bullish!t in 3 gun matches. Turn a plate 90° and it doesn’t fall? Miss. Knock a magnetic plate mostly off a star, but don’t know it didn’t  hit the ground? Miss. 

 

This entire thread has revolved around a shooter spending an extra 30 rounds for a range equipment malfunction. I couldn’t care less (as a shooter or RO) about 30 rounds or less leading to a reshoot. 

[HCH]

4 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Happens every weekend at plenty of clubs. Here is major power factor open gun getting screwed. 

 

 

 

 

Shooter’s option. He could have continued to shoot the stage, and challenged the popper after he made a crappy hit. If you go back to it and drive it down, the score is all on you. 

 

My my guess is, the shooter called a bad hit and decided not to risk losing 40 points in penalties vs 2 seconds. 

[HoMiE]

19 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Shooter’s option. He could have continued to shoot the stage, and challenged the popper after he made a crappy hit. If you go back to it and drive it down, the score is all on you. 

 

My my guess is, the shooter called a bad hit and decided not to risk losing 40 points in penalties vs 2 seconds. 

And we’re back to 3 mike and 1 ftsa. The circle of popper life continues. 

[HCH]

2 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

And we’re back to 3 mike and 1 ftsa. The circle of popper life continues. 

 

There is an entire section of the rule book that explains how to handle this. 

[Chills1994]

Father and son...I take it?

[Chills1994]

36 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Because level 1 matches aren’t required to paint steel between shooters and unpainted targets are not grounds for a reshoot??

 

Plates must fall if hit. And if a competitor hits the stand and the plate falls, the RO should call for a reshoot. 

 

and I have been hosed by the whole “steel must fall to score” bullish!t in 3 gun matches. Turn a plate 90° and it doesn’t fall? Miss. Knock a magnetic plate mostly off a star, but don’t know it didn’t  hit the ground? Miss. 

 

This entire thread has revolved around a shooter spending an extra 30 rounds for a range equipment malfunction. I couldn’t care less (as a shooter or RO) about 30 rounds or less leading to a reshoot. 

 

 

Read the part again where I said "evident:.

 

As in maybe the RO saw where the bullet struck the popper???

 

Or the RO kept a mental note of what kinda hits were on the popper and saw a new hit on the popper at a point that should have taken the popper down???

 

 

 

 

[HCH]

3 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

 

 

Read the part again where I said "evident:.

 

As in maybe the RO saw where the bullet struck the popper???

 

Or the RO kept a mental note of what kinda hits were on the popper and saw a new hit on the popper at a point that should have taken the popper down???

 

 

 

 

 

When was the last time you kept a mental note of where each popper was hit during a COF? 

 

And the rules still give a procedure to follow if a competitor wants to challenge a popper, whether the hit was “evident” to the RO or not. 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by HCH

[Chills1994]

Just now, HCH said:

 

When was the last time you kept a mental note of where each popper was hit during a COF?

Well...

 

if you actually paint steel between squads and shooter #3 of the squad shoots and hits the popper...

 

and ya'll go forward and see that there are three "pock marks" on the still standing popper, AND shooter #1 only fired one round at it and shooter #2 only fired one round at it, I think one could deduce, then, that shooter #3's hit was evidently good enough to knock the popper over...

 

and that equals an automatic reshoot.

 

At least, in my opinion.

 

 

[HCH]

15 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

Well...

 

if you actually paint steel between squads and shooter #3 of the squad shoots and hits the popper...

 

and ya'll go forward and see that there are three "pock marks" on the still standing popper, AND shooter #1 only fired one round at it and shooter #2 only fired one round at it, I think one could deduce, then, that shooter #3's hit was evidently good enough to knock the popper over...

 

and that equals an automatic reshoot.

 

At least, in my opinion.

 

 

 

No.

 

4.3.1.7 and 4.3.1.7.1

 

 

[Chills1994]

2 hours ago, HCH said:

 

No.

 

4.3.1.7 and 4.3.1.7.1

 

 

Oh...I know....

 

I got popper screwed at the 2007 Missouri Fall Classic.

 

That was back when I was wearing a hatcam.  And Ben and I were both posting vids to video.google.com

 

I posted the video to a thread or 5 on popper screw-age...

 

Then YouTube became all the rage.

 

Then google bought YT.

 

And video.google went away along with all my videos.

 

I took an RO class from Gary Stevens in like November 2007 (prior to the official announcement that USPSA bought the Steel Challenge)

 

And then I RO'ed the 2008 Single Stack Nat's.

 

So, yeah, I am well aware of the popper calibration rule and process....on paper.

 

In actual practice at Level I matches...after my 2007 MO Fall Classic popper screwing, the one time I left a popper standing (instead of hammering it down), the acting MD came over and smacked it with his hand.  "YEAH!  That does feel heavy.  RESHOOT!"  Then he leaned over to screw  in the threaded adjuster, smacked it with his hand, and said "GOOD!"

 

And I re-shot that stage.

 

[IHAVEGAS]

8 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

if you actually paint steel between squads and shooter #3 of the squad shoots and hits the popper...

 

At local matches in my area we paint poppers and plate racks between shooters, plates that you have to pick up off the ground not so much. Too me it is very much worth the tiny bit of time and effort.

I won't say that every squad does it but the squads I'm on do it. 

 

[bret]

6 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

Oh...I know....

 

I got popper screwed at the 2007 Missouri Fall Classic.

 

That was back when I was wearing a hatcam.  And Ben and I were both posting vids to video.google.com

 

I posted the video to a thread or 5 on popper screw-age...

 

Then YouTube became all the rage.

 

Then google bought YT.

 

And video.google went away along with all my videos.

 

I took an RO class from Gary Stevens in like November 2007 (prior to the official announcement that USPSA bought the Steel Challenge)

 

And then I RO'ed the 2008 Single Stack Nat's.

 

So, yeah, I am well aware of the popper calibration rule and process....on paper.

 

In actual practice at Level I matches...after my 2007 MO Fall Classic popper screwing, the one time I left a popper standing (instead of hammering it down), the acting MD came over and smacked it with his hand.  "YEAH!  That does feel heavy.  RESHOOT!"  Then he leaned over to screw  in the threaded adjuster, smacked it with his hand, and said "GOOD!"

 

And I re-shot that stage.

 

Another s#!tty RM/MD.

 

The people that followed the rules and made sure it fell were screwed, the RM gave you a break (nice way to say he cheated).

[IHAVEGAS]

30 minutes ago, bret said:

The people that followed the rules and made sure it fell were screwed, the RM gave you a break (nice way to say he cheated).

 

The m.d. most likely felt that the shooter was placed at an unfair competitive disadvantage because the popper was not calibrated correctly during his first course of fire. 

I think owning this (we did not prepare the stage correctly, it is our fault and the shooter should not suffer because of it) at a local match is a reasonable response. To disagree and prefer that the letter of the rulebook was adhered to regardless of this being unfair to the shooter is also a reasonable response. I would not judge either of you as "s#!tty" or cheaters unless your judgements were not consistent with regard to who's shooting.  

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by IHAVEGAS

[bret]

34 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

The m.d. most likely felt that the shooter was placed at an unfair competitive disadvantage because the popper was not calibrated correctly during his first course of fire. 

I think owning this (we did not prepare the stage correctly, it is our fault and the shooter should not suffer because of it) at a local match is a reasonable response. To disagree and prefer that the letter of the rulebook was adhered to regardless of this being unfair to the shooter is also a reasonable response. I would not judge either of you as "s#!tty" or cheaters unless your judgements were not consistent with regard to who's shooting.  

 

What rule said the RM can give a reshoot because he felt they were screwed?

 

it is cheating when the RM doesn't follow the rules and makes up their own rules.