Quick Question about FTSA Penalties and Multiple Strings

[RJH]

I really think that the crux of this boils down to whether a string is it own tiny stage within a stage as per troy, or is a string is a component of a stage as per the rulebook. One gets an FTSA, one doesn't. If i am ROing in this situation i am going to follow the rulebook and the shooter will not be receiving an FTSA. If they change the rulebook,  then i will apply  whatever penalties are appropriate. 

[Gary Stevens]

Personally I think FTSA penalties in a multistring stage is something that should be eliminated.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, bret said:

So they can change the rules any time they want without following the bylaws of how rules are changed and when?

Sure. There are some changes that can only occur so many times in a year or something like that. I think that was the case with some division changes recently. And the new distance from belt rule had to wait if I recall. But clarifying a rule should be a quick fix.

[DKorn]

In case it helps, here’s the entire conversation I had with Troy:

 

Me:

Are FTSA penalties supposed to be assessed per string or for the stage as a whole? For example, if a competitor suffers a stage-ending malfunction during the second string of a classifier, do they get FTSA penalties (because some targets were not shot at during the second string) or not (because the targets were all shot at at some point during the course of fire as a whole)?

 

Troy:

Which classifier?

 

Me:

18-08 The Condor. Shooter correctly engaged all targets on string 1. On string 2, the shooter engaged the first four targets from box B, moved to box A and performed the mandatory reload, and then had a malfunction before engaging T1-T4 from box A. 

 

Ultimately, it didn’t matter in this case because he zero’d the stage anyway with the 4 miles plus other assorted mikes and no shoots from string 1, but I’d still like to know the correct way to score a similar scenario in case this comes up again.

 

Troy:

Since a string is a separately timed component of a course of fire, failing to shoot at targets in any given string incurs FTSA penalties.  A stage is a string, by definition.  A string is a separately timed component of a stage, therefore all stage rules apply.

 

Me:

Doesn’t this directly contradict 6.1.1 which seems to indicate that, unless otherwise specified in the WSB, penalties should be recorded at the end of the course of fire and not between strings?

 

Also, the wording of 9.5.7 seems to imply that FTSA penalties should only apply if the target isn’t shot at during the course of fire, although 10.2.7 is worded slightly differently. 

 

Definitely confusing, although giving the FTSA penalties is clearly the most logical interpretation of the spirit of the rules. 

 

Troy:

In the case of multiple strings, you are recording penalties at the end of each timed portion--at least the penalties you can assign at that time.  Any scoring penalties--misses, extra hits, no-shoots, are recorded after the range is clear and you can go downrange to score. 

 

[bret]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

Sure. There are some changes that can only occur so many times in a year or something like that. I think that was the case with some division changes recently. And the new distance from belt rule had to wait if I recall. But clarifying a rule should be a quick fix.

Clarifying a rule is one thing, changing a rule and calling it a clarification is another but USPSA and DNROI does whatever they want to.

[Sarge]

It's a good thing the stage is blown any way you slice it because it sounds like this will get scored two different ways across all of USPSA.

[bret]

14 minutes ago, Sarge said:

It's a good thing the stage is blown any way you slice it because it sounds like this will get scored two different ways across all of USPSA.

This is where a clarification on how these things are scored that actually follows the rules should be made.

[theWacoKid]

I stick with no FTSA because that's what the text of rules say.  We had this issue a couple matches ago on one of the new classifiers and I explained it as "by the rules there is no FTSA, but by how it was scored at nationals there was".  I used the rulebook to back up my explanation.

 

Using "failure to follow WSB" procedural is a slippery slope.  Number of shots fired, FTSA's, foot faults, etc. should never be penalized under this umbrella because this stuff is specifically addressed in the rulebook.  Using this umbrella procedural has hints of IDPA in it and too much subjectivity.  I think if this procedural is ever given it should 1) be stated in the WSB that "a procedural will be given if *insert circus action here*" or 2) the RM should be involved in the call.

 

For instance, lots of WSB for a comstock stage say engage each target with 2 rounds from within the shooting area.  If we want to hit the umbrella procedural hard, we can give a procedural for every make-up shot fired on paper.  I mean hey, the WSB said shoot each target twice, you shot it three times so you didn't follow the WSB.  Same could happen if you shot a paper once.  Clearly that's ridiculous and while you aren't "following the WSB" the ruling on these actions are clearly defined in the rulebook.  As are the penalties we are discussing.

[racerba]

30 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

For instance, lots of WSB for a comstock stage say engage each target with 2 rounds from within the shooting area.  If we want to hit the umbrella procedural hard, we can give a procedural for every make-up shot fired on paper.  I mean hey, the WSB said shoot each target twice, you shot it three times so you didn't follow the WSB.  Same could happen if you shot a paper once.  Clearly that's ridiculous and while you aren't "following the WSB" the ruling on these actions are clearly defined in the rulebook.  As are the penalties we are discussing.

Written stage briefing tells you that it's comstock...the rule book tells you what penalties you may access.  it's a briefing, not a mandatory condition you must follow.  Part of WSB is, such as a mandatory reload.

 

[Poppa Bear]

From Troy's interpretation it sounds like he is treating FTSA similar to Extra Shot and Extra Hit penalties, penalties that can only be assessed at the line or during scoring.  If you can say the target was not engaged during the COF/String then a FTSA penalty applies (Extra Shot).  If you cannot determine a FTSA at the line then a FTSA penalty will not apply because you cannot assess FTSA during the scoring of the stage (Extra Hit).

[RJH]

6.1.1 string is a component of a standard exercise 

 

1.2.2.1 standard exercise is a course of fire consisting of 2 or more strings

 

9.5.7 FTSA is applied if a competitor doesn't shoot  at a target during a course of fire. 

 

Notice a string is part of a course of fire, and ftsa is only applied if a target is not shot at during a course of fire, not during each string.  That is only from the rule book,  but that don't seem to matter much anymore. Maybe we should all just get dnroi's phone number instead of a rulebook and call for any questions. Seeing as how the rulebook is so incorrect all the time anyway....

 

[Lastcat]

3 hours ago, euxx said:

 

 

If we follow your logic it would be even easier for RO if competitor haven't shot stage at all.

You can enter Zero scores, but that is not the case when you should be doing that as an RO. Stage should be scored as shot.

 

 

There's been over a dozen of us trying to hash this out the last 3 days, and you show up to criticize my one line expressing a thought and that's your best contribution? Dude, it's an afterthought, it's not a commitment on my part or an action I would ever take. Chillax.

[MikeBurgess]

10 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

 

There's been over a dozen of us trying to hash this out the last 3 days, and you show up to criticize my one line expressing a thought and that's your best contribution? Dude, it's an afterthought, it's not a commitment on my part or an action I would ever take. Chillax.

Actually the fun part is even if you know the shooter Zeroed the course of fire if you can not properly account for all the points and penalties to be applied to get to that zero then you must issue a re-shoot, just knowing it must be a Zero doesn't make it one.

If someone just enters a Zero for my stage score I will ask for the RM and ask to see how the Zero was calculated and if its not all there on the tablet I'll take my re-shoot and try to not bugger it up again.

[bret]

29 minutes ago, RJH said:

6.1.1 string is a component of a standard exercise 

 

1.2.2.1 standard exercise is a course of fire consisting of 2 or more strings

 

9.5.7 FTSA is applied if a competitor doesn't shoot  at a target during a course of fire. 

 

Notice a string is part of a course of fire, and ftsa is only applied if a target is not shot at during a course of fire, not during each string.  That is only from the rule book,  but that don't seem to matter much anymore. Maybe we should all just get dnroi's phone number instead of a rulebook and call for any questions. Seeing as how the rulebook is so incorrect all the time anyway....

 

why can't Troy understand this?

[bret]

4 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Actually the fun part is even if you know the shooter Zeroed the course of fire if you can not properly account for all the points and penalties to be applied to get to that zero then you must issue a re-shoot, just knowing it must be a Zero doesn't make it one.

If someone just enters a Zero for my stage score I will ask for the RM and ask to see how the Zero was calculated and if its not all there on the tablet I'll take my re-shoot and try to not bugger it up again.

This is one reason why it is important to properly score all stages.

[euxx]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

Actually the fun part is even if you know the shooter Zeroed the course of fire if you can not properly account for all the points and penalties to be applied to get to that zero then you must issue a re-shoot, just knowing it must be a Zero doesn't make it one.

If someone just enters a Zero for my stage score I will ask for the RM and ask to see how the Zero was calculated and if its not all there on the tablet I'll take my re-shoot and try to not bugger it up again.

 

My point exactly. As long as you have it all recording based on your understanding. It will be possible to update/fix scores later (e.g. based on feedback from RM or Troy). If you enter Zero score - the data is lost and you can't make proper corrections anymore.

[DKorn]

1 minute ago, euxx said:

 

My point exactly. As long as you have it all recording based on your understanding. It will be possible to update/fix scores later (e.g. based on feedback from RM or Troy). If you enter Zero score - the data is lost and you can't make proper corrections anymore.

 

This is what we did- entered it without the penalties, saw that it was already zero, and kept it, knowing that we could always add the penalties later without actually changing the score. 

[Lastcat]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Actually the fun part is even if you know the shooter Zeroed the course of fire if you can not properly account for all the points and penalties to be applied to get to that zero then you must issue a re-shoot, just knowing it must be a Zero doesn't make it one.

If someone just enters a Zero for my stage score I will ask for the RM and ask to see how the Zero was calculated and if its not all there on the tablet I'll take my re-shoot and try to not bugger it up again.

 

Ok we are getting off topic here. No one is zeroing a score. I wouldn't do it, call em as I see them, to be fair and just to any competitor, I would score all targets. If you go back to page 1 and read my post.

 

"Unfortunate for the shooter, but that's how it goes. Even if he had a jam on the first shot. Score all targets and apply penalties. As an RO, I think it would be just easier to enter Zero for this Stage". Don't zero scores, they must be recorded, and on record. 

 

It was just an afterthought, not a submitted action I would apply. It's like we need to carry this dead donkey up the hill, so we can bury it. I think it would be just easier to bury it here. Let's move on, unless we need to talk about the dead donkey.  Anyone? 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Lastcat

[NickBlasta]

4 hours ago, DKorn said:

In case it helps, here’s the entire conversation I had with Troy:

 

Me:

Are FTSA penalties supposed to be assessed per string or for the stage as a whole? For example, if a competitor suffers a stage-ending malfunction during the second string of a classifier, do they get FTSA penalties (because some targets were not shot at during the second string) or not (because the targets were all shot at at some point during the course of fire as a whole)?

 

Troy:

Which classifier?

 

Me:

18-08 The Condor. Shooter correctly engaged all targets on string 1. On string 2, the shooter engaged the first four targets from box B, moved to box A and performed the mandatory reload, and then had a malfunction before engaging T1-T4 from box A. 

 

Ultimately, it didn’t matter in this case because he zero’d the stage anyway with the 4 miles plus other assorted mikes and no shoots from string 1, but I’d still like to know the correct way to score a similar scenario in case this comes up again.

 

Troy:

Since a string is a separately timed component of a course of fire, failing to shoot at targets in any given string incurs FTSA penalties.  A stage is a string, by definition.  A string is a separately timed component of a stage, therefore all stage rules apply.

 

Me:

Doesn’t this directly contradict 6.1.1 which seems to indicate that, unless otherwise specified in the WSB, penalties should be recorded at the end of the course of fire and not between strings?

 

Also, the wording of 9.5.7 seems to imply that FTSA penalties should only apply if the target isn’t shot at during the course of fire, although 10.2.7 is worded slightly differently. 

 

Definitely confusing, although giving the FTSA penalties is clearly the most logical interpretation of the spirit of the rules. 

 

Troy:

In the case of multiple strings, you are recording penalties at the end of each timed portion--at least the penalties you can assign at that time.  Any scoring penalties--misses, extra hits, no-shoots, are recorded after the range is clear and you can go downrange to score. 

 

 

 

All you really need for this logic chain is -

1.2.2.1      Standard Exercises – Courses of fire consisting of two or more separately timed component strings.

9.5.7          A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

 

8.3.1          “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.

8.3.8          “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire.

 

The COF begins with the first string and ends after the last string with RIC. Since FTSA is only considered for any targets unshot after the course of fire, it only matters that they were engaged during any of the component strings.

[euxx]

1 hour ago, Lastcat said:

Let's move on, unless we need to talk about the dead donkey.  Anyone?

 

Well, you said it is easier for you as RO, not me. But now the dead donkey is to discuss if string is a stage or not. DNROI already said it is. End of story, like it or not. What to discuss?

[Lastcat]

11 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Well, you said it is easier for you as RO, not me. But now the dead donkey is to discuss if string is a stage or not. DNROI already said it is. End of story, like it or not. What to discuss?

 

When you look down the end of your nose, does your self righteousness get in the way, or is it the tall throne you sit upon?

[ima45dv8]

Easy back a bit, folks...

[euxx]

12 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

You receive a general procedural for violating "general regulations", or section 10.1, and is the procedural you give a competitor for failing to comply with a written stage brief.

 

I wonder why PractiScore has 10.2.2 listed as "general procedural". It been this way since 2015 or so.

[RJH]

27 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Well, you said it is easier for you as RO, not me. But now the dead donkey is to discuss if string is a stage or not. DNROI already said it is. End of story, like it or not. What to discuss?

Unless dnroi is rm/md where i am roing i will just use the rulebook, not tea leaves and such

[jstagn]

What about not engaging a popper. Mike plus procedural?