9 major bullet set back

[jcc7x7]

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 12:16 PM, GrumpyOne said:

I see a slight coke bottle effect.

B_RAD are you loading EVERGLADES @ HP's ?

If so the batch I got from them was .354 to .3545 dia measured with high quality mics. That I use for work etc.

I like the bullet but keeping it where I want it is a problem due to the small size of them.

 

[zzt]

I fail to see how a Lee FCD can reduce case tension (presumably neck tension).  I use one and you cannot budge the bullet after it has been loaded.

[B_RAD]

3 hours ago, racer-x said:

Jason,

Just for grins, try loading some dummy rounds with out the MBF powder funnel.

 

Either use the factory Dillon powder funnel, or you can do it carefully with no flare at all. Then remove crimp as usual.

My bet is you will not be able to get any setback under normal circumstances (i.e. no hammers or power tools).

 

The brass should be sized down perfectly in station 1 (assuming the die is all the way down). The test above will prove this (or not).

 

If your MBF powder funnel is a little larger OD on the first step than it should be, it will resize out a very significant section of case that needs to be tight to hold your bullet in place. I sanded mine with fine 600 grit then 1000 grit sandpaper. Then shined to a mirror glaze with Mothers polish and Dremel buffing wheel.

 

FYI, I just measured my MBF powder funnel:

1st step = .347 "

2nd step = .355 "

 

Also, I tried a Lee FCD with 9 major loads and it reduced case tension significantly.

My favorite resizing die for 9major is Lee undersized die. I also grind the base until it just touches carbide section. This removes some of the unecessary flare and lets you resize each case a little farther down (allows die to be screwed deeper into tool head).  How much material you can remove depends on the individual die. Do not grind into the carbide section.

Jay, 

 

I loaded on 2 preeses. A 1050 and a 650 (no MBF). Had the same issue with both. 

 

I think it's a Dillon die issue. I still get a little set back even when using the U die but it's very little (.003") and may even be just defroming the tip? 

 

Last two matches I've had multiple issues that have caused my gun to not malfunction. Open is about to be just a bad memory!

 

[B_RAD]

3 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

B_RAD are you loading EVERGLADES @ HP's ?

If so the batch I got from them was .354 to .3545 dia measured with high quality mics. That I use for work etc.

I like the bullet but keeping it where I want it is a problem due to the small size of them.

 

Yes. When I measured them, I got .3545 as well but figured that wasn't it the issue. I had set back with other bullets too.

Edited March 24, 2019 by B_RAD

[racer-x]

18 minutes ago, zzt said:

I fail to see how a Lee FCD can reduce case tension (presumably neck tension).  I use one and you cannot budge the bullet after it has been loaded.

 

I might have missed the finesse point when I tried the Lee FCD, but my experience with 9 major resulted in bullets that were very easy to pull.

I could be wrong, but my determination was that this was a result of differences in elasticity between the bullet & brass (Young's mod.). The FCD squeezes the brass much lower than just the edge of case mouth where a normal crimp die works. Pressure applied here results in different amounts of rebound from the bullet & case that results in less tension holding the bullet.

 

My loads are MG 115 JHP's loaded to 1.165 OAL. This leaves only .270" of bullet in contact with case. Zero problem with setback with this load using Dillon / Lee resize, Dillon/MBF  powder funnel & Dillon crimp dies . Swap out and adjust Lee FCD per Lee directions, bullets can be pulled out by hand without tools.

 

Maybe I missed something with the FCD setup, but I went back to what worked.

 

zzt,

What OAL & Bullet are you using the FCD with that works for you?

[AdamM]

I have found that the Lee FCD does *not* work on lead coated bullets.  Same issue as you describe where the bullet is loose in the brass.  It deforms the lead too easily and the brass springs back.  Even had a few heads fall out when they dropped out of the press into the bin.  The Dillion die works great for them.

 

However with a FMJ (hard jacketed bullet), it works great.  I do the same as Aircooled6racer where there is a very slight deformation in the bullet if you pull it to check.  That small amount will not affect accuracy for what we are doing.   The first heads I tried for Open were the Zero 115's and at 1.165 they were barely in the case and I had a few that fell out when I had used the Dillon crimp.  I switched back to the FCD and it solved the problem.  You may want to try the FCD with a tiny bit more crimp.  I now use Montana Gold 115's and they sit deeper in the case.  With the Dillion resizing dies they still have somewhat of a coke bottle look for me.

[zzt]

13 hours ago, racer-x said:

zzt,

What OAL & Bullet are you using the FCD with that works for you?

 

115 HAP @ 1.161"

 

Using the FCD for lead or coated bullets may not be a good idea if you are looking for the best accuracy.  I load some 40sw with .401" poly coated bullets for use at a club that does not permit jacketed or plated on steel.  The FCD swages the portion of the bullet inside the case down to .400".  It does no swaging when I load my normal .400" plated bullet.

[Shmella]

 

On 3/24/2019 at 6:53 PM, B_RAD said:

Yes. When I measured them, I got .3545 as well but figured that wasn't it the issue. I had set back with other bullets too.

 Ive had this issue before with Montana gold jhp and hornady dies.

What length are you loading to with each profile and what profile again? I never had this issue with coated bullets only with JHP and specifically montana golds. I think for one you are expanding the neck too much after sizing. Post a pic of the case after expanding.

 

Also they look too long for the profile. especially with a 115gr bullet. IMO 1.165 is the longest you can go with certain JHP profiles and you probably can only do so with a U die.

 

if you regularly load coated (which I believe you do) you know you have to expand enough not to scrape the coating. if you expand any more than the bare minimum youre bordering on too much expansion and youll lose neck tension.

[Cam73]

Did you give up on open/major loads?

 

I started down this road last night with similar results..

 

Set up as follows:

Hornady LNL AP

Lee U die set a fuzz off the shell plate 

Hornady powder drop with MBF funnel

MBF die with MAG-P

Lee seating die

Lee FCD

Mixed head stamp brass

Everglades 115gr V2JHP 1.165"

.377" "crimp"

 

I belled the case just enough to hold a bullet without tipping over during indexing then seated and removed the bell like normal. With a good hard lean on the bench I was getting set back numbers ranging between .015"-.045". The round is not deforming, just going deeper in the case. I'm going to try 124s next to see if more bullet in the case helps, but don't intend to give up on 115s yet.

 

 

 

 

[Nolan]

1 hour ago, Cam73 said:

Did you give up on open/major loads?

 

I started down this road last night with similar results..

 

Set up as follows:

Hornady LNL AP

Lee U die set a fuzz off the shell plate 

Hornady powder drop with MBF funnel

MBF die with MAG-P

Lee seating die

Lee FCD

Mixed head stamp brass

Everglades 115gr V2JHP 1.165"

.377" "crimp"

 

I belled the case just enough to hold a bullet without tipping over during indexing then seated and removed the bell like normal. With a good hard lean on the bench I was getting set back numbers ranging between .015"-.045". The round is not deforming, just going deeper in the case. I'm going to try 124s next to see if more bullet in the case helps, but don't intend to give up on 115s yet.

 

 

 

 

 

With a tapered case like 9mm, the height of the sizing die determines the case mouth diameter.  The lower the die is in relation to the shell plate, the smaller the case mouth diameter.  I like to run the sizing die down until it just touches the shell plate then turn it down another 1/8th of a turn and check neck tension with the bullet of choice.  If necessary, turn it in slightly more until I feel the press 'cam over' at the end of the stroke.

 

Nolan

[HesedTech]

7 hours ago, Cam73 said:

Lee FCD

Cam

 

I don’t shoot 9mm major, but I noticed this die in your process.  Is this the Lee crimp die with the sizing ring at its base/opening?
 

if so use another brand that only taper crimps at the case mouth and does not resize whole case.

 

I found the Dillon, and the just plain Lee Taper Crimp dies work great. 
https://leeprecision.com/taper-crimp-die-9mm.html

 

I believe it’s possible the FCD is causing your set back problems. 
 

Good luck. 
 

BTW, I successfully load out to 1.16 with zero set back issues.
sizing die and crimp die Dillon

Bullet seating die Hornady.

Edited November 4, 2020 by HesedTech

[Cam73]

16 hours ago, HesedTech said:

Cam

 

I don’t shoot 9mm major, but I noticed this die in your process.  Is this the Lee crimp die with the sizing ring at its base/opening?
 

if so use another brand that only taper crimps at the case mouth and does not resize whole case.

 

I found the Dillon, and the just plain Lee Taper Crimp dies work great. 
https://leeprecision.com/taper-crimp-die-9mm.html

 

I believe it’s possible the FCD is causing your set back problems. 
 

Good luck. 
 

BTW, I successfully load out to 1.16 with zero set back issues.
sizing die and crimp die Dillon

Bullet seating die Hornady.

Thank you for the input. I had considered the FCD causing a loss of tension based on what other have reported.

 

Last night I adjusted the sizing die to lightly contact the shell plate and loaded a few more dummy rounds. The only round I loaded that did not set back had so little case flare that the bullet was not stable during indexing. The seating die is backed out of the press (to avoid scraping coated bullets while seating minor loads) but still provided enough straightening of the case mouth that the round passed the hundo gage without going through the FCD. After giving it a few hard leans and measuring it for length (no change) I ran it through the FCD and leaned on it again without set back.

The cases that received more flare allowed for set back. 

 

I'll experiment with it a little more but seems like the crimp die really isn't doing much at its current setting. Not very confident I'll be able to use the bullet feeder and/or the shape of the power funnel lends itself well to a 115gr loaded to major lengths.

 

 

 

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, Cam73 said:

Thank you for the input. I had considered the FCD causing a loss of tension based on what other have reported.

 

Last night I adjusted the sizing die to lightly contact the shell plate and loaded a few more dummy rounds. The only round I loaded that did not set back had so little case flare that the bullet was not stable during indexing. The seating die is backed out of the press (to avoid scraping coated bullets while seating minor loads) but still provided enough straightening of the case mouth that the round passed the hundo gage without going through the FCD. After giving it a few hard leans and measuring it for length (no change) I ran it through the FCD and leaned on it again without set back.

The cases that received more flare allowed for set back. 

 

I'll experiment with it a little more but seems like the crimp die really isn't doing much at its current setting. Not very confident I'll be able to use the bullet feeder and/or the shape of the power funnel lends itself well to a 115gr loaded to major lengths.

 

 

 

I use the FCD as a crimp die only. I back it way out away from the shellplate And turn the crimp knob down further. But I also use a Udie to assure no setback.

And as an FYI I load 115’s at 1.165 and beyond with an MBF. No issues. 

[Cam73]

On 11/5/2020 at 10:07 AM, Sarge said:

I use the FCD as a crimp die only. I back it way out away from the shellplate And turn the crimp knob down further. But I also use a Udie to assure no setback.

And as an FYI I load 115’s at 1.165 and beyond with an MBF. No issues. 

 

Are you using the MBF powder funnel in your powder drop?

 

I think the shape of MBF powder funnel has something to do with it. The depth it must go into the case to achieve enough flare for the bullet to be stable during indexing when fed from a bullet feeding die is greater than what is needed when hand placing bullets before seating. The funnel creates a slightly expanded area below where the bottom of a 115 gr bullet will seat when loaded out to 1.160"+ using the 'bullet feeder" setting, resulting in set back. I lost motivation when my open gun got delayed, again, but I'm going to test this theory a little more as it could be total crap, ha ha. 

 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Cam73 said:

 

Are you using the MBF powder funnel in your powder drop?

 

I think the shape of MBF powder funnel has something to do with it. The depth it must go into the case to achieve enough flare for the bullet to be stable during indexing when fed from a bullet feeding die is greater than what is needed when hand placing bullets before seating. The funnel creates a slightly expanded area below where the bottom of a 115 gr bullet will seat when loaded out to 1.160"+ using the 'bullet feeder" setting, resulting in set back. I lost motivation when my open gun got delayed, again, but I'm going to test this theory a little more as it could be total crap, ha ha. 

 

Yes I run MBF And none of your theory pertains to my experience. There is way less bell than there is depth needed for my 115’s

[BillChunn]

Suggestion:  Try using a CasePro to resize the entire case before starting the reloading process.  Here are three rounds of 9mm Blue Bullets 147 grain Flat Point.  There is a coke bottle effect that you can feel on each round.  Have never had any issues with set back.  They run fine in my carbine and Sig P320 Legion.

 

BC 

Edited December 3, 2020 by BillChunn