9 major bullet set back

[B_RAD]

23 minutes ago, TONY BARONE said:

Rigger JJ is right again no marks on the bullet from taper crimping. Your loaded round should have a bottle neck appearance using a u-die.

[B_RAD]

So, here's where I'm at...... I'm still having set back when pushing on bullets. It's mostly around the .005” - .007" but some are moving .010" and a few have moved as much as .050". It's not on all, but on some.  All kinds of brass. 3 different kinds of bullets(all .355").  It's happening on 2 different presses with 4 different sizing dies. (1 U and 3 Dillon). I'm also getting some rounds that have .003" - .005" of set back when chambering. Though, this could be from bullet deformation. 

 

I've been marking the bullets so that there's a gap between case and the on bullet. This Gap is getting smaller when the movement is .010"+. So, there is movement. In some cases I can see the bullet move on the ones with .020 or more.  

 

Saying all that, it happens less with the U die and seems less with the 124 gr. Both of those make sense. Also, in the cases with significant movement, I'm pretty sure it's not happening when sized with the U die. 

 

I pulled several bullets to see if the .375" - .377" crimp was leaving any marks on the bullet. I couldn't see anything. So, I'm ruling out too little or too much crimp.

 

My theory is, it's a brass issue. The brass is range pick up that I bought. I don't know where in the life of this group of brass something could have caused this? Sitting in the sun? During the cleaning prep process?

 

My other theory is, this is more common than I thought. The ones that moved a lot I'm chalking up to bad brass and not using the u die. 

 

The U die should help but I still cant see how even with a standard sizing die, there could be this issue unless it's a brass weakness issue. 

 

Could it be from not belling/expanding the case mouth enough?  I'm doing just enough that the bullet will sit on the case without falling off. It's not much. I had someone tell me after sizing and belling/expanding there should be .015" difference from case mouth to the area about 1/8” down. I can't see how this could cause an issue?  I'm not getting what I'd call the bottle neck or coke bottle look either. 

 

I'm open to any thoughts or suggestions. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by B_RAD

[Dwbsig]

A couple things you could try would be to get some onch fired brass to try. Second thing to try would be to lay your brass on its side like  in and old baking pan to spray your lube on to the brass so you will know that none of the lube is getting inside of the case mouth. If all else fails maybe you could polish a half a thousand off of your powder funnel/expander to see if you get any improvement.

[B_RAD]

Tried some once fired brass I got from a friend. 

 

Same results. 

 

Removed sizing die, confirmed for the 4th time it is for 9mm.  Set it again. 

 

I'm convinced it's a combination of things. 

 

1. .355" bullets

2. 9 Major OAL

3. Dillon sizing die

 

Other possibilities

1. Somehow I got a lot of bad, worn out brass? Not likely. 

2. I'm an idiot and I'm doing somtheing wrong. Maybe?

 

 

I'm gonna roll on and go with 124 gr JHP @ 1.155". Going to use Lee U die. 

[GrumpyOne]

If you have anyone nearby that has a 9mm sizing die that you can borrow, try that. My 9mm minor rounds sized with a Dillon die are almost an extreme coke bottle effect...maybe the die is worn out or out of spec? 

[zzt]

b, I just went down loaded a mag, went outside and chambered a round.  I ejected and the round hit the ground on its nose.  It was 1.161" before chambering and 1.160" after.  I'm using 115 gr HAP bullets, so it probably was not due to deformation.  The width of the case mouth is .377" with the bullet inserted.  It is .375" about 1/4" down.

 

I use fully processed range brass.  It has been resized and deprimed, swaged, push through sized, then cleaned with SS media and waxed.  I run it through my Hornady LnL.  The Hornady sizer does resize the case a little more.  It looks like it sizes it straight down to about 2/3 the length of the case.  I expand with a Mr. Bulletfeeder expander/funnel.  This is a two step expander.  The bottom step is standard size.  The top step expands the case mouth to about .356".  I do not 'bell' the case.  It is just enough to let the bullet drop in and remain vertical when moving to the next station.  I taper crimp using a Lee factory Carbide crimp die.  In addition to crimping, it sizes.  The case is burnished to 1/4" to 3/8" from the top.  So the top has been sized more than occurred in the seater die.

 

Since I'm using mixed headstamp brass just like you, I can't see the brass as being the issue.  It must be the combination of dies I'm using, because I just don't have setback problems.  And it cannot be the powder preventing it, because Major Pistol is very compressible.

 

I used to load 40sw on a Dillon machine with all Dillon dies.  I do remember the seater die did not remove all of the bell, and the crimp die crimped, but there was a slight bulge just under the case mouth.  I swapped the Dillon expander for a Mr. Bulletfeeder expander and did not bell.  That solved that particular problem.

 

Try non-Dillon dies.  I love the Lee FCD and use it for 9mm, 40 and 45.  I also use the Mr. Bulletfeeder expander for all three.  Those two changes alone might cure your problem.  BTW, in 9mm I have the FCD set to not crimp.  It just sizes the top of the case.  BTW2, it is only for .355" bullets.

[B_RAD]

2 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

If you have anyone nearby that has a 9mm sizing die that you can borrow, try that. My 9mm minor rounds sized with a Dillon die are almost an extreme coke bottle effect...maybe the die is worn out or out of spec? 

Dillon sent me a brand new one that arrived  yesterday..  same issue. 

 

I've tried 3 different  Dillon dies.

 

No come bottle. 

 

Again, I'm not sold I'm. It somehow doing something wrong but I'm lost. 

[GrumpyOne]

[B_RAD]

5 minutes ago, zzt said:

b, I just went down loaded a mag, went outside and chambered a round.  I ejected and the round hit the ground on its nose.  It was 1.161" before chambering and 1.160" after.  I'm using 115 gr HAP bullets, so it probably was not due to deformation.  The width of the case mouth is .377" with the bullet inserted.  It is .375" about 1/4" down.

 

I use fully processed range brass.  It has been resized and deprimed, swaged, push through sized, then cleaned with SS media and waxed.  I run it through my Hornady LnL.  The Hornady sizer does resize the case a little more.  It looks like it sizes it straight down to about 2/3 the length of the case.  I expand with a Mr. Bulletfeeder expander/funnel.  This is a two step expander.  The bottom step is standard size.  The top step expands the case mouth to about .356".  I do not 'bell' the case.  It is just enough to let the bullet drop in and remain vertical when moving to the next station.  I taper crimp using a Lee factory Carbide crimp die.  In addition to crimping, it sizes.  The case is burnished to 1/4" to 3/8" from the top.  So the top has been sized more than occurred in the seater die.

 

Since I'm using mixed headstamp brass just like you, I can't see the brass as being the issue.  It must be the combination of dies I'm using, because I just don't have setback problems.  And it cannot be the powder preventing it, because Major Pistol is very compressible.

 

I used to load 40sw on a Dillon machine with all Dillon dies.  I do remember the seater die did not remove all of the bell, and the crimp die crimped, but there was a slight bulge just under the case mouth.  I swapped the Dillon expander for a Mr. Bulletfeeder expander and did not bell.  That solved that particular problem.

 

Try non-Dillon dies.  I love the Lee FCD and use it for 9mm, 40 and 45.  I also use the Mr. Bulletfeeder expander for all three.  Those two changes alone might cure your problem.  BTW, in 9mm I have the FCD set to not crimp.  It just sizes the top of the case.  BTW2, it is only for .355" bullets.

Thank you for the info!

 

I may look a t the FCD. 

 

I too am using the Me BF expander. 

 

I believe im getting the same measurements as you but I will go check. 

[GrumpyOne]

Those are PD 147 FMJ's, mixed range brass, Dillon resize die, 

[B_RAD]

2 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

I'll look some up and take a pic

[B_RAD]

Just now, GrumpyOne said:

Those are PD 147 FMJ's, mixed range brass, Dillon resize die, 

I'm thinking since those are seated deeper than what I'm loading, that's why you're getting the coke bottle.  My bullets are going about half that deep. Remember I'm loading 124/115 and major lengths. 

[GrumpyOne]

Just now, B_RAD said:

I'll look some up and take a pic

While you are at it, take a pic of your press, of the sizing die, handle all the way down please. It is kissing the shellplate, right?

[GrumpyOne]

1 minute ago, B_RAD said:

I'm thinking since those are seated deeper than what I'm loading, that's why you're getting the coke bottle.  My bullets are going about half that deep. Remember I'm loading 124/115 and major lengths. 

Those are loaded to 1.150. When I loaded MG 124', I thought the coke bottle effect was even more pronounced.

[GrumpyOne]

I don't have any 124's laying around, but I do have some 115's. I'll try and seat a 115 at 1.155 and get a pic of it. 

[GrumpyOne]

The taller one is a 115 @ 1.157, no powder, no primer, no crimp. I did get set back when I pushed it very hard on my bench, down to 1.146, on a second push, it went to 1.106. Again, no powder, primer, or crimp. Mixed brass (didn't even look at the headstamp).

[B_RAD]

48 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

The taller one is a 115 @ 1.157, no powder, no primer, no crimp. I did get set back when I pushed it very hard on my bench, down to 1.146, on a second push, it went to 1.106. Again, no powder, primer, or crimp. Mixed brass (didn't even look at the headstamp).

Ok. So, I'm not the only one. 

 

I'm doing crimp and still getting the set back. Again, since we've accepted that crimp doesn't hold the bullet we can rule out the crimp issue. 

.

Here's a pic of mine. I tried to push on this one and I cahmbered it in my open gun. No set back.  But there's no coke bottle. I reset my U die for the 5th time. I made sure it touches the shell plate. 

 

 

[B_RAD]

Very next round, I was able to push it in .015". 

 

 

[GrumpyOne]

9 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Ok. So, I'm not the only one. 

 

I'm doing crimp and still getting the set back. Again, since we've accepted that crimp doesn't hold the bullet we can rule out the crimp issue. 

.

Here's a pic of mine. I tried to push on this one and I cahmbered it in my open gun. No set back.  But there's no coke bottle. I reset my U die for the 5th time. I made sure it touches the shell plate. 

 

 

I see a slight coke bottle effect.

[B_RAD]

29 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

I see a slight coke bottle effect.

Very slight!  

 

 

[Dr Mitch]

Probably your expander is oversized.  Should be more of an hour-glass shape.

[Steve RA]

Try a larger diameter bullet, since that seems to be the one thing you haven"t tried.

[zzt]

Dillon likes coke bottle cases.  They say it helps feeding.  Other dies do not do that and still feed fine.

 

Here is a picture of mine.

Edited March 23, 2019 by zzt

[HesedTech]

Just out curiosity I checked some of my 124 FMJ HP .355 (Everglades) ammo, 1.13 OAL, to see if I could cause it to set back. Answer not one.

 

Now I am loading the bullet deeper than the OP is so that might be part of the answer. I also have quite a bit of “coke bottle” on all my cases.

 

I use a 1050 with Dillon die for sizing, MBF powder funnel, Hornady for bullet seating (with the Micrometer added) and Dillon taper crimp die.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by HesedTech

[racer-x]

Jason,

Just for grins, try loading some dummy rounds with out the MBF powder funnel.

 

Either use the factory Dillon powder funnel, or you can do it carefully with no flare at all. Then remove crimp as usual.

My bet is you will not be able to get any setback under normal circumstances (i.e. no hammers or power tools).

 

The brass should be sized down perfectly in station 1 (assuming the die is all the way down). The test above will prove this (or not).

 

If your MBF powder funnel is a little larger OD on the first step than it should be, it will resize out a very significant section of case that needs to be tight to hold your bullet in place. I sanded mine with fine 600 grit then 1000 grit sandpaper. Then shined to a mirror glaze with Mothers polish and Dremel buffing wheel.

 

FYI, I just measured my MBF powder funnel:

1st step = .347 "

2nd step = .355 "

 

Also, I tried a Lee FCD with 9 major loads and it reduced case tension significantly.

My favorite resizing die for 9major is Lee undersized die. I also grind the base until it just touches carbide section. This removes some of the unecessary flare and lets you resize each case a little farther down (allows die to be screwed deeper into tool head).  How much material you can remove depends on the individual die. Do not grind into the carbide section.