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9 major bullet set back


B_RAD

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Hello: These bullets were pulled from cases with a 0.006" crimp. Notice no coating removed from the red coated bullet and not scratches on the jacketed bullet. You cannot push these bullets back in at all. EGW "U" sizing die and Dillon crimp die. Thanks, Eric

IMG_2174.jpg

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12 minutes ago, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: These bullets were pulled from cases with a 0.006" crimp. Notice no coating removed from the red coated bullet and not scratches on the jacketed bullet. You cannot push these bullets back in at all. EGW "U" sizing die and Dillon crimp die. Thanks, Eric

IMG_2174.jpg

Thank you for the pic. 

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I'd suggest trying a larger bullet.  Personally, I use .358 Precision coated in my 9mm.  ln your case I'd go with a .356 and if that doesn't cure the problem, go to a .357 and see how that works.  Changing the diameter might also affect the accuracy, could be worse or better.

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I'm banging my head against the wall!

 

I've had people tell me you're gonna get set back if and some tell me you shouldn't have any. 

 

I'm having the same issue on two different presses with different dies, brass, bullets. 

 

 

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21 hours ago, B_RAD said:

I'm lost. I'm using a U die. It's adjusted all the way down to touch the shell plate when the handle is down. 

 

St 3 is expanding to about .351".

 

Flaring case mouth very little.

 

Removing flare/crimmping to .377"

 

Bullets are .355"

 

Am I missing anything?

I've double checked these numbers and the inside expansion might be closer to .354" but other than that, I've done all I know how to do. I've classed Dillon 3 days in a row. I've reset the sizing die on two different presses with 3 different dies. Only other thing is somehow this batch of mixed brass has undergone some type of change on a molecular level and the brass is weaker. Doesn't seem to matter which brand I choose out of the bunch, I'm getting set back. 

 

 

 

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Just now, B_RAD said:

I've double checked these numbers and the inside expansion might be closer to .354" but other than that, I've done all I know how to do. I've classed Dillon 3 days in a row. I've reset the sizing die on two different presses with 3 different dies. Only other thing is somehow this batch of mixed brass has undergone some type of change on a molecular level and the brass is weaker. Doesn't seem to matter which brand I choose out of the bunch, I'm getting set back. 

 

 

 

Brass will work harden and loose neck tension and mixed brass will have different wall thickness. 

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12 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

Stop pushing so hard?

 

Sorry, Bro....don't know what else to suggest.

Yeah. I'm thinking it's something that's gonna happen. Especially if you really push hard. 

 

I took some factory ammo and messured it, then chambered it and measured again. I got about what I'm getting on my reloads. About .003"

 

 

Before I was getting a lot more and I'm thinking it was causing my feeding issues. 

 

I ran about 30 last night after solving the extreme set back and the gun ran 100%  I'm gonna run a hundred more tomorrow. 

 

 

 

Edited by B_RAD
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5 hours ago, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: These bullets were pulled from cases with a 0.006" crimp. Notice no coating removed from the red coated bullet and not scratches on the jacketed bullet. You cannot push these bullets back in at all. EGW "U" sizing die and Dillon crimp die. Thanks, Eric

IMG_2174.jpg

Yea...hate to say it Eric, but that is a bit too much crimp. You can be able to see the mark, but it should not indent the bullet. At least thats what my reloading teachers taught me...

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3 hours ago, B_RAD said:

I just pulled out some reloads in had from a buddy and pulled out some factory Winchester fmj. Got set back from both when I pushed on them against my bench.

 

 

 

You must be really strong. 🏋️‍♂️

 

I tried that and my reloads didn’t budge and basically with almost no crimp (just enough to take bell out).😓

 

I’m no help. 

Edited by HesedTech
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27 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

 

You must be really strong. 🏋️‍♂️

 

I tried that and my reloads didn’t budge and basically with almost no crimp (just enough to take bell out).😓

 

I’m no help. 

I was pushing on them pretty hard but I wouldn't say I'm any stronger than anyone else....just put a lot of weight behind it. 

 

Not all of the ones I pushed on moved. I'd bet if you tired a few you'd get one to move a little. I'd think chambering a round would be a more realistic test since that's what happens. 

 

Anyways, I'm fairly confident I solved the problem I was having with significant set back. 

Edited by B_RAD
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B, look at it from a different angle.  If you are getting setback from chambering a round, it may have nothing to do with dies or brass.  It may be the angle the round is hitting the feed ramp at.    That is influenced by the mag catch shelf height, the mag feed lips and the mag spring.  You want the bullet to hit at least halfway up the feed ramp.  A little higher is better.

 

You can check the mag catch by pushing the mag all the way in and holding it there while you release the slide.  Do the same pulling the mag down against the shelf.  Is one better than the other?   If your mag spring it too stiff it can push the round up hard against the feed lips and cause a slight nose dive when feeding.  That happens to me when I install new springs.  It takes a while for them to take a set and feed properly.

 

If all of that is correct check your feed lips.  Chambering a round in slow motion will show you were the bullet hits on the feed ramp, and when the back of the round pops up after clearing the feed lips.

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17 minutes ago, zzt said:

B, look at it from a different angle.  If you are getting setback from chambering a round, it may have nothing to do with dies or brass.  It may be the angle the round is hitting the feed ramp at.    That is influenced by the mag catch shelf height, the mag feed lips and the mag spring.  You want the bullet to hit at least halfway up the feed ramp.  A little higher is better.

 

You can check the mag catch by pushing the mag all the way in and holding it there while you release the slide.  Do the same pulling the mag down against the shelf.  Is one better than the other?   If your mag spring it too stiff it can push the round up hard against the feed lips and cause a slight nose dive when feeding.  That happens to me when I install new springs.  It takes a while for them to take a set and feed properly.

 

If all of that is correct check your feed lips.  Chambering a round in slow motion will show you were the bullet hits on the feed ramp, and when the back of the round pops up after clearing the feed lips.

Thank you for the info. I'll look into this. 

 

I'm starting to think open isn't for me.  

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You also can look at the marks on the feedramp itself to see where the nose of your bullets are contacting it in the chambering process.

 

You had gun issues you ID-ed as a failure to feed. In trouble shooting that you also discovered an ammo problem. So you actually have two problems and need to check the process down two separate avenues of investigation.

 

I think reasonably you've started with the QC process of your ammo. Are you now making consistent, accurate, power factor ammo with almost no setback? (knowing you, I also think you're putting more force pushing on the round than you realize when you test it) If so then call this area good, make a mental check mark it's done and forget about it for now.

 

Now you can start working on the feeding issue. Obviously ammo is a part of solving this but not everything. You have a "race gun" and equipment. I'd advise you to treat it as such and give everything about it and the process and its ancillary equipment constant, careful attention. You should know, not think, everything is adjusted to specs you know are appropriate and work.

 

The more you shoot the more important this is to be proactive rather than reactive. So now go through the process eliminating your feeding issue with the known good ammo you have. Finally 100 rounds is not a test, 1,000 rounds is a test if something will work and be trustworthy. 100 rounds is an initial assessment.

 

And be like Southwest or the old Soviet forces in sticking with one "thing" when it comes to supplies. Why two different bullets? Why two different powders? Why different dies? Reduce the number of variables you have in your supply chain by finding, using and sticking with one thing that you know works. One die set up, even if across multiple machines. One bullet, one powder. This will make your Open life easier when you're new to it.

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22 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

You also can look at the marks on the feedramp itself to see where the nose of your bullets are contacting it in the chambering process.

 

You had gun issues you ID-ed as a failure to feed. In trouble shooting that you also discovered an ammo problem. So you actually have two problems and need to check the process down two separate avenues of investigation.

 

I think reasonably you've started with the QC process of your ammo. Are you now making consistent, accurate, power factor ammo with almost no setback? (knowing you, I also think you're putting more force pushing on the round than you realize when you test it) If so then call this area good, make a mental check mark it's done and forget about it for now.

 

Now you can start working on the feeding issue. Obviously ammo is a part of solving this but not everything. You have a "race gun" and equipment. I'd advise you to treat it as such and give everything about it and the process and its ancillary equipment constant, careful attention. You should know, not think, everything is adjusted to specs you know are appropriate and work.

 

The more you shoot the more important this is to be proactive rather than reactive. So now go through the process eliminating your feeding issue with the known good ammo you have. Finally 100 rounds is not a test, 1,000 rounds is a test if something will work and be trustworthy. 100 rounds is an initial assessment.

 

And be like Southwest or the old Soviet forces in sticking with one "thing" when it comes to supplies. Why two different bullets? Why two different powders? Why different dies? Reduce the number of variables you have in your supply chain by finding, using and sticking with one thing that you know works. One die set up, even if across multiple machines. One bullet, one powder. This will make your Open life easier when you're new to it.

That's why you got red hair. You're a commie!  

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15 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

Stop pushing so hard?

 

Sorry, Bro....don't know what else to suggest.

You should be able to push pretty damned hard and get little to preferably no setback. Also, push them a second time and see if they change again. I found sometimes they really don't setback but rather the tip of the bullet deforms enough to account for a few thousandths. Especially softer tips like lead, plated, coated, etc. When I load MG 121 IFP's the exposed lead deforms easy enough to convince me they are setting back. Maybe scratch the bullet with a knife at the case mouth and see if that changes when you push on them.

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11 minutes ago, Sarge said:

You should be able to push pretty damned hard and get little to preferably no setback. Also, push them a second time and see if they change again. I found sometimes they really don't setback but rather the tip of the bullet deforms enough to account for a few thousandths. Especially softer tips like lead, plated, coated, etc. When I load MG 121 IFP's the exposed lead deforms easy enough to convince me they are setting back. Maybe scratch the bullet with a knife at the case mouth and see if that changes when you push on them.

I marked the case/bullets to make sure changes in OAL weren't actually due to deforming the bullet. 

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3 hours ago, Sarge said:

You should be able to push pretty damned hard and get little to preferably no setback. Also, push them a second time and see if they change again. I found sometimes they really don't setback but rather the tip of the bullet deforms enough to account for a few thousandths. Especially softer tips like lead, plated, coated, etc. When I load MG 121 IFP's the exposed lead deforms easy enough to convince me they are setting back. Maybe scratch the bullet with a knife at the case mouth and see if that changes when you push on them.

I should say that even though, I marked the bullets, the small amount that I'm getting now, could be from the bullet deforming. 

 

.003" is probably almost impossible to see with the naked eye.  

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A 115 JHP lends itself to setback when loaded to major lengths, due to so little of the bullet touching the case. 

You are using a U-die, so sizing shouldn't be the issue. However, some brass headstamps of late (from large manufacturers) have known issues with case neck tension. Best I can tell, it is probably due to an alloy issue. 

I know what bullets you are using, so I'm certain it isn't a bullet dia. issue ;) 

I like to see a minimum of 40 lbs of pressure to move a bullet in a case.  This is usually easily achievable in 9mm with standard loading practices and good components. 

 

It is perfectly fine to leave a very light ring in a jacketed bullet with a taper crimp.  Not NECESSARY, but is OK.  Just be sure not to make a measurable difference in the dia. of the bullet. 

However, as has been stated, crimp is NOT the solution to bullet setback.  

 

9mm JHP bullets have thin noses, and it is easy to deform them slightly.  Upon measuring, people will sometimes interrupt it as bullet setback. .003" could definitely be bullet nose deformation, and if you are pushing the nose against your bench with much force, then re-measuring, it is very probably that is what you are experiencing. 

 

 

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