mikeAZ Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Don't want to get into politics here..... But..... it seems that our friends at BATFE now say a pistol brace isn't a buttstock so a brace can be shouldered/cheeked on a AR pistol , Barrel length is/can be less than 16"...since it's not a rifle but a pistol ....I'd guess the rule maker's at USPSA are in a huddle???... Maybe yet another class?.... Pistol brace open/ pistol brace limited or maybe carry optics brace , open/limited... What say you????....1st. person that comes up with a AR pistol holster wins.. I never really understood the $200 SBR fee thing anyhow, same as a machine gun ... A 6' tall person could dang near hide a 5' ladder under a trench coat if they really tried.... Link to comment
HoMiE Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Uspsa rules say must have a stock unless you have a legal sbr. There are some outlaw matches that allow braced pistols. Link to comment
The Donald Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 52 minutes ago, HoMiE said: Uspsa rules say must have a stock unless you have a legal sbr. There are some outlaw matches that allow braced pistols. Wouldn't a SBR have a stock? I know both mine do.. Link to comment
MoRivera Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Well, technically as I gather, an AR with a brace is either a pistol if it doesn't have a vertical fore grip, or an 'other' if it has a barrel 12" or longer and has a vertical fore grip. As far as IDPA... 8.2.7 Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) Requirements: Rifles permitted for use in PCC must be semi-automatic and have a minimum barrel length of 10”. Carbines must be designed to be fired from the shoulder and have a butt stock installed. Authorized pistol caliber cartridges include 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 ACP. Magazine capacity is 10 rounds plus one in chamber to total 11 in carbine at one time. Starting condition with PCC is locked and loaded at the low ready, unless otherwise specified on written stage description. PCC Division Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list): It’s an “Inclusive list” so that means it includes almost everything and is not necessarily excluding any modifications if they are not listed here. Iron Sights, Optical and Electronic Sights are allowed Lights and Lasers are also authorized Muzzle Devices such as Flash hiders, Compensators and Muzzle Brakes are allowed Action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained Reliability work Internal Accuracy work Aftermarket Extractors and pins may be used Aftermarket Triggers and Trigger Work that result in the trigger being forward or rearward from the stock trigger position. Externally visible trigger over travel stops Checkering, serrated and stippling Extended and/or ambidextrous bolt releases Custom finished and engraving may be applied Aftermarket safeties Magazine base pads may be modified by reshaping, texturing, or adding bumper pads. Aftermarket magazine base bumper pads may be used provided they do not make the magazine weight more than 1.00 oz over the same capacity factory magazine. PCC Division Excluded Features are firearms not designed for use with a butt stock; for example AR pistols with Sig Brace or equivalent. Bipods are not authorized. Butt stock must remain attached to the firearm. I think for USPSA, unless it has changed recently........ Appendix D8--Pistol Caliber Carbine Division 1 Minimum Barrel Length **see Special Conditions** None (See special conditions.) 2 Approved/Permitted Calibers 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP 3 Minimum Power Factor 125 **Minor Scoring Only** 4 Maximum Velocity **Minor Scoring Only** 1600 FPS 6 Must have stock attached and be capable of being fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed** Handgun to carbine conversions are allowed, provided they meet the criteria above.**see Special Conditions** Yes, see 5.1.10. 7 Sling use authorized Yes 8 Optical sight/electronic sights permitted Yes 9 Compensators /Muzzle Brakes permitted Yes 10 Flash Hiders permitted Yes 11 Suppressors permitted No 12 Rules References All references to “handgun” are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where the terms “holstering”, “drawing”, or “re-holstering” are referenced, and where otherwise noted. PCC specific rules are in the PCC rules addendum. 13 Lasers/Flashlights Yes 14 Magazine and Magazine holder restrictions No side-by-side magazine couplers allowed. Magazines must be carried on the belt or in apparel pockets. See rule 5.2.4. No restriction on location on the belt. No thigh rigs or tie down magazine holders. End-to-end coupling/extension is allowed. 15 Full Auto/ “Burst” Capabilities (one trigger pull fires more than one round--see special conditions) Permitted, but semi-auto function only, see PCC 5.1.11, PCC 5.1.12, PCC 10.5.18 16 Binary Triggers (firearm fires once on trigger pull and once on release) Not Allowed So I guess the question is in regards to those rules being based on the former BATF ruling the the brace wasn't allowed to be shouldered....and now that it can..... Link to comment
HoMiE Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 16 minutes ago, The Donald said: Wouldn't a SBR have a stock? I know both mine do.. Legal SBR is allowed, a sig brace or other brace type attachment is not in uspsa. I also shot a NRA tactical police match and they did not allow braces either. Link to comment
MemphisMechanic Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, The Donald said: Wouldn't a SBR have a stock? I know both mine do.. An SBR has always been legal. The firearm must be some form of rifle in pcc. An AR Pistol is not and has never been. There’s the simple version. Edited December 6, 2018 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment
MoRivera Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 This is why as a CT resident, I had to splurge on a pre-ban lower. Link to comment
Silverscooby27 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Oh you can shoot it...in Open class... Link to comment
MemphisMechanic Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Silverscooby27 said: Oh you can shoot it...in Open class... If you stick to “baby” mags that only hold 26-28 rounds. Link to comment
JZELEK Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 12 hours ago, Silverscooby27 said: Oh you can shoot it...in Open class... Seriously do the rules for Open class really allow a "PCC" pistol and if so can you fire it from the shoulder? Link to comment
Startingover Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 hour ago, JZELEK said: Seriously do the rules for Open class really allow a "PCC" pistol and if so can you fire it from the shoulder? I believe you would need a holster Link to comment
Acer2428 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 I suppose if you could design a holster for it... and use tiny mags that are slower to reload than a pistol. And God forbid you built your 'pistol' to shoulder it... etc, etc. This is why people hate PCC. Just shoot in PCC class. E-forms take <30 days now and yes, it's $200... but so are SB-PDWs and other braces out there. Guys are spending damn near that much to have a have a fancy and mostly useless comp pinned and welded onto their barrels. I realize this is a game... full of gamers, but why even piss off Open class by squirreling in? Shoot for no score if you REALLY want to practice with your 'braced pistol' and be done. Creating a new class for firearms that exist in an ATF grey area is foolhardy. Link to comment
open17 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 17 hours ago, mike NM said: ..1st. person that comes up with a AR pistol holster wins.. What do I win? Link to comment
TonytheTiger Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Surely you guys must be talking about Open division? Never heard of Open class. Link to comment
jdk129 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 16 hours ago, MoRivera said: Well, technically as I gather, an AR with a brace is either a pistol if it doesn't have a vertical fore grip, or an 'other' if it has a barrel 12" or longer and has a vertical fore grip. As far as IDPA... 8.2.7 Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) Requirements: Rifles permitted for use in PCC must be semi-automatic and have a minimum barrel length of 10”. Carbines must be designed to be fired from the shoulder and have a butt stock installed. Authorized pistol caliber cartridges include 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 ACP. Magazine capacity is 10 rounds plus one in chamber to total 11 in carbine at one time. Starting condition with PCC is locked and loaded at the low ready, unless otherwise specified on written stage description. PCC Division Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list): It’s an “Inclusive list” so that means it includes almost everything and is not necessarily excluding any modifications if they are not listed here. Iron Sights, Optical and Electronic Sights are allowed Lights and Lasers are also authorized Muzzle Devices such as Flash hiders, Compensators and Muzzle Brakes are allowed Action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained Reliability work Internal Accuracy work Aftermarket Extractors and pins may be used Aftermarket Triggers and Trigger Work that result in the trigger being forward or rearward from the stock trigger position. Externally visible trigger over travel stops Checkering, serrated and stippling Extended and/or ambidextrous bolt releases Custom finished and engraving may be applied Aftermarket safeties Magazine base pads may be modified by reshaping, texturing, or adding bumper pads. Aftermarket magazine base bumper pads may be used provided they do not make the magazine weight more than 1.00 oz over the same capacity factory magazine. PCC Division Excluded Features are firearms not designed for use with a butt stock; for example AR pistols with Sig Brace or equivalent. Bipods are not authorized. Butt stock must remain attached to the firearm. I think for USPSA, unless it has changed recently........ Appendix D8--Pistol Caliber Carbine Division 1 Minimum Barrel Length **see Special Conditions** None (See special conditions.) 2 Approved/Permitted Calibers 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP 3 Minimum Power Factor 125 **Minor Scoring Only** 4 Maximum Velocity **Minor Scoring Only** 1600 FPS 6 Must have stock attached and be capable of being fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed** Handgun to carbine conversions are allowed, provided they meet the criteria above.**see Special Conditions** Yes, see 5.1.10. 7 Sling use authorized Yes 8 Optical sight/electronic sights permitted Yes 9 Compensators /Muzzle Brakes permitted Yes 10 Flash Hiders permitted Yes 11 Suppressors permitted No 12 Rules References All references to “handgun” are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where the terms “holstering”, “drawing”, or “re-holstering” are referenced, and where otherwise noted. PCC specific rules are in the PCC rules addendum. 13 Lasers/Flashlights Yes 14 Magazine and Magazine holder restrictions No side-by-side magazine couplers allowed. Magazines must be carried on the belt or in apparel pockets. See rule 5.2.4. No restriction on location on the belt. No thigh rigs or tie down magazine holders. End-to-end coupling/extension is allowed. 15 Full Auto/ “Burst” Capabilities (one trigger pull fires more than one round--see special conditions) Permitted, but semi-auto function only, see PCC 5.1.11, PCC 5.1.12, PCC 10.5.18 16 Binary Triggers (firearm fires once on trigger pull and once on release) Not Allowed So I guess the question is in regards to those rules being based on the former BATF ruling the the brace wasn't allowed to be shouldered....and now that it can..... For IDPA, the max mag capacity is 30. Link to comment
Patrick Scott Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) On 12/6/2018 at 5:12 PM, mike NM said: Don't want to get into politics here..... But..... it seems that our friends at BATFE now say a pistol brace isn't a buttstock so a brace can be shouldered/cheeked on a AR pistol , Barrel length is/can be less than 16"...since it's not a rifle but a pistol ....I'd guess the rule maker's at USPSA are in a huddle???... Maybe yet another class?.... Pistol brace open/ pistol brace limited or maybe carry optics brace , open/limited... What say you????....1st. person that comes up with a AR pistol holster wins.. I never really understood the $200 SBR fee thing anyhow, same as a machine gun ... A 6' tall person could dang near hide a 5' ladder under a trench coat if they really tried.... Every time I see a post about making a division for braced pistols, all I hear is "I have this gun that doesnt fit the rules. Can we make a division for it? I don't want to buy the proper gear to play the game" Also IIRC per AR pistols are a no-go in Open even with a holster. Rule 5.1.10 Forearms have been deemed "fore grips" 5.1.10 Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited Edited December 8, 2018 by Patrick Scott Link to comment
Patrick Scott Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) *double tap Edited December 7, 2018 by Patrick Scott Link to comment
MoRivera Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, jdk129 said: For IDPA, the max mag capacity is 30. That's what I understood a short while back when I shot my PCC in a local IDPA match, but I actually decided to shoot my 10-rders in a stage that had specific mag changes because I wanted to work on them and also I'd be self-conscious if all the other shooters had to do one and I didn't. Actually, I also shot it both strong and weak one-handed on a stage that called for it. Still did well as it had a very light carbon-fiber barrel. Edited December 7, 2018 by MoRivera Link to comment
cvincent Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment
The Donald Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 1 hour ago, cvincent said: Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk That is funny, I don't care who you are.. Link to comment
BentAero Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Serious question: If the Feds don't care if we shoulder a cheek brace, what's the harm in allowing say, a 10" barrel AR-9 'pistol' in the PCC class? What difference does it make? Link to comment
HoMiE Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 20 minutes ago, BentAero said: Serious question: If the Feds don't care if we shoulder a cheek brace, what's the harm in allowing say, a 10" barrel AR-9 'pistol' in the PCC class? What difference does it make? I’m sure no organization would want to be in any grey area and bring attention to any match. A lot of matches already get enough crap just to hold a match running around with guns. My personal opinion will be “braces” are the next bump stocks. Link to comment
ClangClang Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 4 hours ago, BentAero said: Serious question: If the Feds don't care if we shoulder a cheek brace, what's the harm in allowing say, a 10" barrel AR-9 'pistol' in the PCC class? What difference does it make? The problem is the Feds DO care. Have you actually read the latest opinion letter? You are allowed to "incidentally" shoulder your brace, but if you are repeatedly and continually firing from the shoulder, you obviously did not intend to build a pistol, you intended to build a rifle, and therefore you are in possession of an unregistered SBR. If USPSA allowed AR-pistols, every single competitor would be shooting the entire match firing from the shoulder (duh) and committing a federal felony at a sanctioned event with video evidence. It's never, ever gonna happen until SBR's are flat out removed from the NFA, which probably aint ever gonna happen either. Link to comment
BentAero Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 On 12/9/2018 at 2:27 AM, ClangClang said: The problem is the Feds DO care. Have you actually read the latest opinion letter? You are allowed to "incidentally" shoulder your brace, but if you are repeatedly and continually firing from the shoulder, you obviously did not intend to build a pistol, you intended to build a rifle, and therefore you are in possession of an unregistered SBR. If USPSA allowed AR-pistols, every single competitor would be shooting the entire match firing from the shoulder (duh) and committing a federal felony at a sanctioned event with video evidence. It's never, ever gonna happen until SBR's are flat out removed from the NFA, which probably aint ever gonna happen either. But, but. but, I accidentally, incidentally, without intention, shot the entire match from the shoulder! There was a chance until you got to that "video evidence" part... Link to comment
Acer2428 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 On 12/8/2018 at 9:10 PM, BentAero said: Serious question: If the Feds don't care if we shoulder a cheek brace, what's the harm in allowing say, a 10" barrel AR-9 'pistol' in the PCC class? What difference does it make? Because a braced pistol is.... a braced pistol and it's NOT a pistol caliber carbine? I went through the same thing when I first saw the class and only had two braced pistols in my safe.... but I had an M4 stock in my parts bin and a $70 barrel later I was in business. It's either a pistol or it's a rifle/carbine. The ONLY argument I could see against the current rules is if you had a rifle and you CHOSE to use a Sig Brace AS a stock and were still not able to participate. But asking why you can't use a pistol in a carbine class is like asking why PCC's can't compete in Carry Optics... Link to comment
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