IHAVEGAS Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Troy's column acknowledges that there are problems occasionally with reshoots & incorrect times due to some very quiet pcc's. And he recommends that we modify the sport (different timing equipment, different r.o. techniques) to accommodate the guns. Why would anybody even consider that? PCC's are only quiet enough to be a problem when the shooter chooses a gun/accessories/ammo combination that is a problem. Why wouldn't you just require the shooter to bring equipment that works with existing range equipment and procedures? Requiring the r.o. to live inside the shooters underwear is I guess the only thing I have a major issue with, I think it makes the r.o. less able to focus on safety. Verification of a minimum DB level should be cheap & easy. https://www.walmart.com/ip/HURRISE-Sound-Level-Meter-Portable-Digital-Decibel-Meter-Audio-Noise-Measurement-30-130dBA-MA-Noise-Measuring-Instrument-Sound-Decibel-Meter-Reader/708797953?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=15391&adid=22222222227255959194&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=301997564151&wl4=pla-539636283089&wl5=9016656&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=118771473&wl11=online&wl12=708797953&wl13=&veh=sem&gclid=Cj0KCQiAxNnfBRDwARIsAJlH29BtyO0ZW2k_-ETfMwdeiDqcH3QvtuJQi7U_ESGX8V5b4cZEtWffEPgaApxnEALw_wcB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 He recommends tweaking the sensitivity and holding the timer closer to the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalTeacher Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 I don’t see how holding the timer closer to the gun is modifying the sport. Anyone who has ever ROd steel challenge with rimfire shooters already knows how to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 There is also a new timer in testing right now that may help...The ANG timer has great promise.It blue tooth links to scoring tablets....That gives a second set of eyes on the time..Imagine a score keeper watching the pad and the last shot is not recorded? That is coming.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 2 hours ago, CalTeacher said: I don’t see how holding the timer closer to the gun is modifying the sport. Anyone who has ever ROd steel challenge with rimfire shooters already knows how to do this. Spend an afternoon chasing fast shooters with very quiet guns & trying to focus on your primary job (safety & rules compliance) while making sure that you are watching the timer and almost literally on top of them (while trying not to distract them) for their last shot. Steel challenge it is not. 100% different than being in the best spot for observation and safety. Again, it is only a problem with the very quiet guns, most pcc shooters you can run like a pistol shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 2 hours ago, RadarTech said: Imagine a score keeper watching the pad and the last shot is not recorded? That is coming.... Being a contrary old fart, I imagine all of the Maw and Paw clubs having to buy and maintain all of that crap and the 2nd range official missing safety calls and procedurals because he has his nose stuck in an ipad . And then I imagine somebody with a very quiet gun tweaking to make it more quiet so we are back at square 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Being a contrary old fart, I imagine all of the Maw and Paw clubs having to buy and maintain all of that crap and the 2nd range official missing safety calls and procedurals because he has his nose stuck in an ipad [emoji4] . And then I imagine somebody with a very quiet gun tweaking to make it more quiet so we are back at square 1. At a local it’s gonna happen.... most of the time only the “timer RO” is watching the shooter...I’d only expect this at a major where there should be 3 or more ROs in the stage.. and it really only matters for the last shot..Procedure would be easy... watch the pad for a couple shots and see if it picking them up.. then look to where the last position is and then check again...Gaming is gonna happen... and making a quieter gun is gonna happen.While I can see the argument I’m not mounting a timer to my gun, at some point it just may have to happen... I guess a few manadatory reshoots with worse scores will eventually make a shooter go uuuuggg. What do you want me to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, RadarTech said: Procedure would be easy... watch the pad for a couple shots and see if it picking them up.. then look to where the last position is and then check again... It's easy NOW. Just look at the timer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 It's easy NOW. Just look at the timer...Sure... but at the same time... is it done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, teros135 said: It's easy NOW. Just look at the timer... And then call a reshoot if the last shot did not register because the gun was real quiet and you didn't have time or room to get back into the shooters underwear . If I was an honery person I'd design a pcc reshoot stage, just have the guy finish with a mad dash to his right, last two shots through a port, wall or other obstacle blocking the r.o. from getting around to get the timer near the gun. But I am too nice to even think about things like that. And again, only the mouse fart guns are a problem. Edited November 22, 2018 by IHAVEGAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 AMG Labs posted a video with timer clipped to shooter, using remote start from tablet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Have no problem holding a timer closer, as long as the competitor doesn't ask for a re-shoot when he blows it and can see the timer in his vision. Now the real problem with PCC"s is as an RO my shooting glasses now have several nicks from brass!!! Worried about timers picking up, the worst is the rimfire's, especially rifles, in Steel Challenge, now that is a huge problem. In Steel Challenge I'm getting old and just not able to see the timer, watch the shooter and watch the steel for hits. I can only seem to do 2 of the 3, have to get the assistants to watch the steel for hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 14 hours ago, waktasz said: He recommends tweaking the sensitivity and holding the timer closer to the gun. 13 hours ago, CalTeacher said: I don’t see how holding the timer closer to the gun is modifying the sport. Anyone who has ever ROd steel challenge with rimfire shooters already knows how to do this. Easy Fix as mentioned above. Turn up the sensitivity and hold the timer closer to the gun. It doesn't affect the shooter in any way and the RO is never put in a dangerous or unsafe position. Steel Challenge is part of USPSA. Do we now have to require the rimfire shooters to maintain a certain DB to shoot? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, stick said: Easy Fix as mentioned above. Turn up the sensitivity and hold the timer closer to the gun. It doesn't affect the shooter in any way and the RO is never put in a dangerous or unsafe position. It is obvious that you do not have any experience running fast folks with quiet pccs through USPSA field courses. That is not meant as an insult. Troy acknowledges that it is indeed a problem in his article which I thought was a big step in the right direction. 2 hours ago, stick said: Steel Challenge is part of USPSA. Do we now have to require the rimfire shooters to maintain a certain DB to shoot? I think not. The two sports have similar but very different rules, you would not see rimfire shooters in USPSA for example. Edited November 23, 2018 by IHAVEGAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) What about asking the pcc shooter, "Where approximately do you think is going to be your last shooting position?" Allowing the RO to pre plan a little bit, freeing up some of their observational skills during the middle portion of the stage. I think some of the reasoning behind using SC as an example is often the same make and model of timers are used in those events as in USPSA. I am not a certified RO but I have been a RO at locals for uspsa, idpa and sc. So I've been able to experiment with where I need to be in relation to the shooter and where the timer needs to be in relation to the firearm to be able to 1. monitor safety. 2. monitor rules compliance. 3. record an appropriate time. PCC shooters are also going to have to accept the fact of life that the RO will be somewhat closer to you, so accept it as a cost of doing business in that division. Edited November 23, 2018 by rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, rowdyb said: What about asking the pcc shooter, "Where approximately do you think is going to be your last shooting position?" Allowing the RO to pre plan a little bit, freeing up some of their observational skills during the middle portion of the stage. I do not even try to get all the shots during the stage if it is one of those guns that the timer has to be very close to, something happens and it is most likely going to be a reshoot, there is a recent thread on the topic & that seems to be a common practice. Figuring out where to meet the gun for the last shot when you can makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaylanGivens Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 21 hours ago, RadarTech said: There is also a new timer in testing right now that may help... The ANG timer has great promise. It blue tooth links to scoring tablets.... That gives a second set of eyes on the time.. Imagine a score keeper watching the pad and the last shot is not recorded? That is coming.... The scorekeeper doesn't watch the pad... At the end of the run, when the timer RO says "If you are finished..." you press the clock icon and the time shows up... If the shooter fires again... press the clock icon again and you get the current time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 The scorekeeper doesn't watch the pad... At the end of the run, when the timer RO says "If you are finished..." you press the clock icon and the time shows up... If the shooter fires again... press the clock icon again and you get the current time.Yea. I’m waiting for my ANG to do some testing and work with PS for thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 We need picatinny rail Bluetooth mics for all occasions shooters!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillChunn Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Anybody have a link to this ANG timer? BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, waktasz said: He recommends tweaking the sensitivity and holding the timer closer to the gun. Adjusting the sensitivity on a Pact Club Timer III involves removing the battery and using a small phillips screwdriver. That simply isn't going to happen between shooters in a squad. And there are many people that don't know how to adjust the sensitivity on their Pocket Pro or CED. It's not a realistic solution to adjust the timer's sensitivity between shooters multiple times. Even if there is only one PCC shooter on a squad, the timer's sensitivity would need to be adjusted twice. A more realistic solution would be to have a designated timer for PCC and one for pistols. Edited November 23, 2018 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) Adjusting the sensitivity is rife with problems, move it too far and shots from neighboring berms will be picked up, if the shots are close enough together the RO may not notice that the timer has picked up an extra shot or two. Not all PCCs have the same sound level, adjusting it for one may not work for another. If we start adding additional timers then you will likely one for each squad at the match, who will have to pay for them ? Even if a bluetooth or other wireless device is developed for timing the shooter, the cost issue still arises. We can't have the RO standing so close to the competitor that it becomes unsafe or causes the shooter to come into contact with the RO which leads to reshoots. More unintended consequences to this division... A sound meter is less costly than a timer, set a minimum sound level for all guns, if it does not reach the required level at a distance of six feet then you don't shoot. Edited November 23, 2018 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 We have a standard magazine gauge from EGW that costs about $35. We have boxes for measuring Single Stack/Production guns that cost around $50 or higher. A good sound meter is less than either of these, set a limit that every division has to comply with. If the RO has problems picking up the shots then the CRO measures with the sound meter, if it fails then you're done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Actually an accurate meter is way more than you’re expecting. Spllabs and termlab are two of the Meyers used by sound off organizations. Then you have the b&k meter as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 9 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said: It is obvious that you do not have any experience running fast folks with quiet pccs through USPSA field courses. That is not meant as an insult. Troy acknowledges that it is indeed a problem in his article which I thought was a big step in the right direction. The two sports have similar but very different rules, you would not see rimfire shooters in USPSA for example. No insult taken but I do have experience with quiet PCC's. From my experience, If I hold the timer low on the right side of the PCC, it registers 99.9% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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