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IHAVEGAS

Nov USPSA mag, pcc rules

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Troy's column acknowledges that there are problems occasionally with reshoots & incorrect times due to some very quiet pcc's.

 

And he recommends that we modify the sport (different timing equipment, different r.o. techniques) to accommodate the guns.

 

Why would anybody even consider that? PCC's are only quiet enough to be a problem when the shooter chooses a gun/accessories/ammo combination that is a problem. Why wouldn't you just require the shooter to bring equipment that works with existing range equipment and procedures?  Requiring the r.o. to live inside the shooters underwear is I guess the only thing I have a major issue with, I think it makes the r.o. less able to focus on safety. 

 

Verification of a minimum DB level should be cheap & easy.

 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/HURRISE-Sound-Level-Meter-Portable-Digital-Decibel-Meter-Audio-Noise-Measurement-30-130dBA-MA-Noise-Measuring-Instrument-Sound-Decibel-Meter-Reader/708797953?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=15391&adid=22222222227255959194&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=301997564151&wl4=pla-539636283089&wl5=9016656&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=118771473&wl11=online&wl12=708797953&wl13=&veh=sem&gclid=Cj0KCQiAxNnfBRDwARIsAJlH29BtyO0ZW2k_-ETfMwdeiDqcH3QvtuJQi7U_ESGX8V5b4cZEtWffEPgaApxnEALw_wcB

 

 

 

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He recommends tweaking the sensitivity and holding the timer closer to the gun.

 

 

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I don’t see how holding the timer closer to the gun is modifying the sport.  Anyone who has ever ROd steel challenge with rimfire shooters already knows how to do this.

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There is also a new timer in testing right now that may help...
The ANG timer has great promise.

It blue tooth links to scoring tablets....
That gives a second set of eyes on the time..

Imagine a score keeper watching the pad and the last shot is not recorded?
That is coming....

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2 hours ago, CalTeacher said:

I don’t see how holding the timer closer to the gun is modifying the sport.  Anyone who has ever ROd steel challenge with rimfire shooters already knows how to do this.

 

Spend an afternoon chasing fast shooters with very quiet guns & trying to focus on your primary job (safety & rules compliance) while making sure that you are watching the timer and almost literally on top of them (while trying not to distract them) for their last shot. Steel challenge it is not. 

 

100% different than being in the best spot for observation and safety. 

 

Again, it is only a problem with the very quiet guns, most pcc shooters you can run like a pistol shooter.  

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2 hours ago, RadarTech said:

Imagine a score keeper watching the pad and the last shot is not recorded?
That is coming....

 

Being a contrary old fart, I imagine all of the Maw and Paw clubs having to buy and maintain all of that crap and the 2nd range official missing safety calls and procedurals because he has his nose stuck in an ipad :) .

 

And then I imagine somebody with a very quiet gun tweaking to make it more quiet so we are back at square 1.  

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Being a contrary old fart, I imagine all of the Maw and Paw clubs having to buy and maintain all of that crap and the 2nd range official missing safety calls and procedurals because he has his nose stuck in an ipad  .
 
And then I imagine somebody with a very quiet gun tweaking to make it more quiet so we are back at square 1.  


At a local it’s gonna happen.... most of the time only the “timer RO” is watching the shooter...

I’d only expect this at a major where there should be 3 or more ROs in the stage.. and it really only matters for the last shot..

Procedure would be easy... watch the pad for a couple shots and see if it picking them up.. then look to where the last position is and then check again...

Gaming is gonna happen... and making a quieter gun is gonna happen.
While I can see the argument I’m not mounting a timer to my gun, at some point it just may have to happen... I guess a few manadatory reshoots with worse scores will eventually make a shooter go uuuuggg. What do you want me to do?

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10 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

Procedure would be easy... watch the pad for a couple shots and see if it picking them up.. then look to where the last position is and then check again...

 

 

It's easy NOW.  Just look at the timer...

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It's easy NOW.  Just look at the timer...

Sure... but at the same time... is it done?

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22 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

It's easy NOW.  Just look at the timer...

 

And then call a reshoot if the last shot did not register because the gun was real quiet and you didn't have time or room to get back into the shooters underwear :) . 

 

If I was an honery person I'd design a pcc reshoot stage, just have the guy finish with a mad dash to his right, last two shots through a port, wall or other obstacle blocking the r.o. from getting around to get the timer near the gun. But I am too nice to even think about things like that. 

 

And again, only the mouse fart guns are a problem. 

Edited by IHAVEGAS

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AMG Labs posted a video with timer clipped to shooter, using remote start from tablet.

 

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Have no problem holding a timer closer, as long as the competitor doesn't ask for a re-shoot when he blows it and can see the timer in his vision.

 

Now the real problem with PCC"s is as an RO my shooting glasses now have several nicks from brass!!!

 

Worried about timers picking up, the worst is the rimfire's, especially rifles, in Steel Challenge, now that is a huge problem.

In Steel Challenge I'm getting old and just not able to see the timer, watch the shooter and watch the steel for hits.  I can only seem to do 2 of the 3, have to get the assistants to watch the steel for hits.

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14 hours ago, waktasz said:

He recommends tweaking the sensitivity and holding the timer closer to the gun.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, CalTeacher said:

I don’t see how holding the timer closer to the gun is modifying the sport.  Anyone who has ever ROd steel challenge with rimfire shooters already knows how to do this.

Easy Fix as mentioned above.  Turn up the sensitivity and hold the timer closer to the gun.  It doesn't affect the shooter in any way and the RO is never put in a dangerous or unsafe position.  Steel Challenge is part of USPSA.  Do we now have to require the rimfire shooters to maintain a certain DB to shoot?  I think not.

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2 hours ago, stick said:

Easy Fix as mentioned above.  Turn up the sensitivity and hold the timer closer to the gun.  It doesn't affect the shooter in any way and the RO is never put in a dangerous or unsafe position.

 

It is obvious that you do not have any experience running fast folks with quiet pccs through USPSA field courses. That is not meant as an insult. Troy acknowledges that it is indeed a problem in his article which I thought was a big step in the right direction. 

 

2 hours ago, stick said:

Steel Challenge is part of USPSA.  Do we now have to require the rimfire shooters to maintain a certain DB to shoot?  I think not.

 

The two sports have similar but very different rules, you would not see rimfire shooters in USPSA for example. 

Edited by IHAVEGAS

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What about asking the pcc shooter, "Where approximately do you think is going to be your last shooting position?" Allowing the RO to pre plan a little bit, freeing up some of their observational skills during the middle portion of the stage.

 

I think some of the reasoning behind using SC as an example is often the same make and model of timers are used in those events as in USPSA. I am not a certified RO but I have been a RO at locals for uspsa, idpa and sc. So I've been able to experiment with where I need to be in relation to the shooter and where the timer needs to be in relation to the firearm to be able to 1. monitor safety. 2. monitor rules compliance. 3. record an appropriate time.

 

PCC shooters are also going to have to accept the fact of life that the RO will be somewhat closer to you, so accept it as a cost of doing business in that division.

Edited by rowdyb

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2 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

What about asking the pcc shooter, "Where approximately do you think is going to be your last shooting position?" Allowing the RO to pre plan a little bit, freeing up some of their observational skills during the middle portion of the stage.

 

I do not even try to get all the shots during the stage if it is one of those guns that the timer has to be very close to, something happens and it is most likely going to be a reshoot, there is a recent thread on the topic & that seems to be a common practice. 

 

Figuring out where to meet the gun for the last shot when you can makes a lot of sense.  

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21 hours ago, RadarTech said:

There is also a new timer in testing right now that may help...
The ANG timer has great promise.

It blue tooth links to scoring tablets....
That gives a second set of eyes on the time..

Imagine a score keeper watching the pad and the last shot is not recorded?
That is coming....

 

The scorekeeper doesn't watch the pad...  At the end of the run, when the timer RO says "If you are finished..."  you press the clock icon and the time shows up...  If the shooter fires again...  press the clock icon again and you get the current time.

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The scorekeeper doesn't watch the pad...  At the end of the run, when the timer RO says "If you are finished..."  you press the clock icon and the time shows up...  If the shooter fires again...  press the clock icon again and you get the current time.

Yea. I’m waiting for my ANG to do some testing and work with PS for thoughts...

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We need picatinny rail Bluetooth mics for all occasions shooters!!!! 

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23 hours ago, waktasz said:

He recommends tweaking the sensitivity and holding the timer closer to the gun.

 

 

 

 

Adjusting the sensitivity on a Pact Club Timer III involves removing the battery and using a small phillips screwdriver.  That simply isn't going to happen between shooters in a squad.  

 

And there are many people that don't know how to adjust the sensitivity on their Pocket Pro or CED.

 

It's not a realistic solution to adjust the timer's sensitivity between shooters multiple times.  Even if there is only one PCC shooter on a squad, the timer's sensitivity would need to be adjusted twice.  

 

A more realistic solution would be to have a designated timer for PCC and one for pistols.

Edited by d_striker

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Adjusting the sensitivity is rife with problems, move it too far and shots from neighboring berms will be picked up, if the shots are close enough together the RO may not notice that the timer has picked up an extra shot or two. Not all PCCs have the same sound level, adjusting it for one may not work for another.

 

If we start adding additional timers then you will likely one for each squad at the match, who will have to pay for them ?

 

Even if a bluetooth or other wireless device is developed for timing the shooter, the cost issue still arises. 

 

We can't have the RO standing so close to the competitor that it becomes unsafe or causes the shooter to come into contact with the RO which leads to reshoots.

 

More unintended consequences to this division...

 

A sound meter is less costly than a timer, set a minimum sound level for all guns, if it does not reach the required level at a distance of six feet then you don't shoot.

Edited by BritinUSA

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We have a standard magazine gauge from EGW that costs about $35.

We have boxes for measuring Single Stack/Production guns that cost around $50 or higher.

A good sound meter is less than either of these, set a limit that every division has to comply with.

 

If the RO has problems picking up the shots then the CRO measures with the sound meter, if it fails then you're done. 

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Actually an accurate meter is way more than you’re expecting. 

Spllabs

and termlab are two of the Meyers used by sound off organizations. 

Then you have the b&k meter as well

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9 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 

It is obvious that you do not have any experience running fast folks with quiet pccs through USPSA field courses. That is not meant as an insult. Troy acknowledges that it is indeed a problem in his article which I thought was a big step in the right direction. 

 

 

The two sports have similar but very different rules, you would not see rimfire shooters in USPSA for example. 

No insult taken but I do have experience with quiet PCC's.  From my experience, If I hold the timer low on the right side of the PCC, it registers 99.9% of the time.

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