Patrick Sweeney Posted August 28, 2005 Author Share Posted August 28, 2005 Since I have a boatload of photos, I'll have to go through them and see if I have one of the pistol in question. Even if I do, what's done is done. Maybe I've got too much of a scientific mind, but if I'm looking at a pistol to see if it has been modified, I would find a box-stock sample to compare it to. Since we can't now pore over the pistol in question, drop it. Julie asked, paid a hundred bucks to have her curiosity satisified, and dropped it. Be as bid a sport as she is. I do, however, have a laundry list of questions and suggestions for Mr. Pinto, for the future trip to Bali. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john flentz Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 These and the other photos posted are of the gun used by Adam Tyc at World Shoot XIV, taken on stage 7, Saturday, August 27, 2005, at about 4:00 PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LwE Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 John, What is going on here? Did the competitor use two different guns during the match? Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Hi Everybody!So... its been a little stressful and I definitely lost a fan base to say the least, but in my heart I felt it was my duty and my right. Rules are rules. In a game, there have to be rules. My guess is you expanded your fan base by doing the right thing far in excess of any hard feelings which may have been engendered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Ok, so now we're confused .... one source (VP) is saying the gun actually arbitrated and inspected was a CZ-85, but there are photos of Adam shooting what looks like an SP-01 in the match as well? Was there a gun change, sanctioned (or not) by the Match Director, or is one of these facts in error? Those close up photos sure look like an SP-01. Someone please clarify. EDITED: I guess the gun in question has now been disclosed to be a CZ-85 Combat II, which looks just like an SP-01 but with a shorter dustcover, and no dreaded "SP-01" designation. I wonder how many of those exist, 2? 3? a dozen? oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 (edited) The pics of adam's gun was taken at the world shoot YESTERDAY on stage 7! You can all come to your own conclusion why VINCE feels that the pictures posted on this forum are from a different match. Option A: Vince doesn't know jack about CZs and the photos accurate represent the gun adam brought to the arbitration Option B: The photos are fake and the world shoot barrier tape was electronically added to old photos. Option C: What else could possible convine VINCE that the gun in the picture is not the same gun adam presented to the arbitration committee <Post Edited for Content> Edited August 28, 2005 by kimel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99gski Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Hi everyone, I will address Mr. Pinto's post on the Global Village more formally when I have the time and since this matter is a closed issue as far as IPSC is concerned, I am doing my best to enjoy this experience. I saw Mr. Pinto today and he was very gracious and friendly. From what he did post... I will say my arbitration was accepted at 4:32pm... not 2:30. That is false. I had no idea I could view the gun as this was my first arbitration and I was never offered the opportunity to see it when the verdict was given. (Very big room. ) As I said before, the committee was very professional and courteous when they spoke with me. I appreciate them respecting me as a shooter, competitor and as a person. It was refreshing considering how I have been treated by others... THANK YOU!!! If my shooting in Standard means I am not to report what I believe morally wrong when I see it, I am sorry... I just can't do that. Rules are rules. The pictures posted by John Flentz in another thread are what I saw. That was the gun used here. Tyc's hands are a mess. Dave Olhasso leant him some medical stuff (there's sportsmanship) to help him compete. The area under the trigger guard must have been bothering him enough for the use of a tool to remove/polish material. Adam is a top shooter. He could have come here and earned the respect of all. After everything I have endured from the past 24 hours and then watching him disrespect my teammate and slap him on the arm instead of taking Dave's hand offered in congratulation at the shootoff shows me he lacks professionalism, integrity, honor and maturity. Congrats to the shootoff winners. I went with every intention to shoot and at the check in they told us they would have no official ladies or junior shootoff. We stayed for the end of the open shootoff and left. I guess they decided differently but it would have been nice to know. If they did have a ladies shootoff I don't know who was there, but congrats to the winners all the same. All the best, julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted August 28, 2005 Author Share Posted August 28, 2005 No official Ladies or Junior shootoffs? Then who'd I watch shoot? I guess the plan was to make the two-hour window scheduled by dropping everyone except the Men. Color me confused. If I didn't have to catch the bus (two hours before the awards are supposed to start) I'd be a Moderator in danger of breaking the rules. More added to the list of things needing answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwmiket Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Julie, It is refreshing to see such professionalism and sense of grace in a competitor. You make me proud to be a "Glocker" and you do an outstanding job of representing our country. Kudos! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 After everything I have endured from the past 24 hours and then watching him disrespect my teammate and slap him on the arm instead of taking Dave's hand offered in congratulation at the shootoff shows me he lacks professionalism, integrity, honor and maturity Was considering a CZ for entry into PD in USPSA/IPSC and SSP in IDPA, not now, not EVER. Great spokesperson you got there CZ, It may have won the PD on paper for what its worth, but it has no SOUL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoupirate Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Julie, You did the Right THING!!! If your equipment is 100% legal, being asked any questions about the equipment is no mental distraction. I too would pursue som further action with anyone who responds in the way he did. If someone had an issue with me, I would rather them file an protest and have it resolved offically than have the looming questions. I think you did him a favor, hearing that you were not the only other competitor that had questions about his gear. As far as "cheaters" and "Crybabies", I got to watch the SUPER SQUAD at natls. I overheard many comments made about certain shooters being cheaters. Either file a protest or shut up. I don't want to hear your whining, crying, threatening, or other childish antics after the opportunity is over. Be like Julie, and put up the $$$$ and have the morals to call a spade a spade or SHUT UP! If your on your speakerphone cell phone and your calling someone's name and adding "little cheating ass (insert name here)" Everyone in the hotel lobby can hear you and recognize your voice. I feel sorry for you guys take all of this so seriously that it's no longer fun. Maybe you should quit! Shoot, Smile, Enjoy time on the range with others, and Have Fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 This is a cluster, there can be no doubt. First to Julie, well done. You've not lost any fans. You've shown your integrity and given us all a little more faith in the human spirit. In other words, we're proud of you. So there's two threads going on this subject right? And this is a huge issue, there can be no doubt. No matter what happens, there are scars that will likely never heal as a result of the issues taking place at this match. And Julie is correct in saying hey, it's over. She did her deal, the board did it's deal, and now the issue is dead as it relates to this match. And I again reiterate that obviously none of us are privy to all conversations that took place as it relates to this topic. HOWEVER - there are two things that are important to me. First - the disrespect, the questionable integrity, those are clear issues. There are holes in a lot of this story. The gun in the photos is not consistent with the model they said they checked. The gun in the photo's certainly looks like it was modified - obviously we aren't holding it in hand so it's hard to tell - but wow. Sure looks like it. Second - we all know that a modification like that did not make the difference that enabled the win. That is not up for debate (with me at least). But if the rules say this modification can't happen, and it did happen, then the shooter needs to be penalized. Regardless of that shooter's position in the match, nationality, or the "minimal effect" it in actuality has on performance. I'd liken it to golf. I player is getting ready to hit a shot and accidentally touches their ball. Even if that touch makes virtually no difference in the shot, the player is penalized. Sure, it would be nice to turn our heads and look the other way - but if we do, then what will be the next issue that's just a little bit bigger then this one pops up? We'll clearly precedence has been set. It's scary what the implications of this could mean and frankly it's too bad this has left such a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Last - damn I wish we could just get results! J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 surely tyc's gun was modified. and under US rules, that type of modification would technically not be allowed. but, the IPSC production rules are slightly different, and it looks like its allowed there: US appendix D9 (US production division) 21.5 external modifications other than sights not allowed. appendix D4 (IPSC production) 19.1 modifications...other than minor detailing, are prohibited. the detailing to tyc's gun is pretty minor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Good point - one I had not considered. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Looking at the close up pictures, that just looks dremmeled. However we covered that to death. Looking at that picture however it seems that the grips are sunk BELOW the level of the frame. Can you guys that seen them tell me if that looked that way to you or only in the picture. I want those grips if they are reall. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Looing at the shoot offs, is there some significance to the spaces between the groups of names: http://www.worldshootxiv.com/html/modules.php?name=shootoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 The space separates the final eight and the four alternates. The eight would, if I understand this correctly, participate in the shoot offs ---- alternates would be moved up in the event of someone not showing up.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 After everything I have endured from the past 24 hours and then watching him disrespect my teammate and slap him on the arm instead of taking Dave's hand offered in congratulation at the shootoff shows me he lacks professionalism, integrity, honor and maturity Was considering a CZ for entry into PD in USPSA/IPSC and SSP in IDPA, not now, not EVER. Great spokesperson you got there CZ, It may have won the PD on paper for what its worth, but it has no SOUL. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Its not the gun..its the people..CZ still has great representatives with Angus, Matt and Todd.. this just shows even those that are there cannot reach an agreement to what has happened..and then add all that from us that were not even there.. I appreciate the fact that Julie took it to arbitration..and did get a ruling..be it right or wrong..it was ruled on...the fact that some folks with CZ, not all, do not have the level of maturity to accept being questioned..there are many sports out there where the winner and his/her equipment is taken for an equipment check and drug testing just as a matter of fact.. its too bad that a competition of this level, the hard work put on by the host and the hard work of all the competitiors there..had to be marred by such an event.. the event is over, champions have been named..bad calls will always be made in sporting events, example of bad sportsmanship and examples of exemplary sportsmanship will always surface...this is competition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Its not the gun..its the people I was NOT refering to the gun, the tool can NEVER have SOUL, the person can. Julie you got SOUL +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Straight from Vince: "In an effort to further clarify my earlier post, in particular my comment "While it was obvious that the right-hand side of the frame had a minor portion which was shiny, we concluded that this was due to wear & tear", kindly note this means we concluded that the bluing on the gun had worn. In other words, we are not suggesting that the actual steel was worn away due to constant use." Doesn't sound like any steel was missing on the gun Vince examined, only worn bluing. One would think that any dremeling, or "minor detailing" (whatever that is) would have been mentioned very specifically if it existed. After reading what Vince has been writing, what Julie has been writing, and after looking at the holstered gun in the picture, I can't help but question why so many people want this to simply go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 I thought that race-gun type holsters were not allowed in production division. The one in the picture looks like a rescomp. I thought they had to cover the front of the gun, or did they change the rules. It's definately a SP-01 in John's pictures and it appears that the picture was taken at the WS. But Vince says they examined a CZ-85 Combat.... I'm confused... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I thought that race-gun type holsters were not allowed in production division. The one in the picture looks like a rescomp. I thought they had to cover the front of the gun, or did they change the rules.theyre prohibited in production only under the US rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 This is interesting, look at this post and the one I added afterwards.. Global Village Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Goloski Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I have been hesitant to add my 2 cents to this discussion, but I think I will say a few things and let it go. I don't think that I have ever been more proud of my daughter than I am at this time. Not only did she perform supurbly in the tournament (and let me add my congrats to Petra and all the other winners), but she showed a level of integrity that some individuals in the sport don't even comprehend. Julie did make one error in her reporting of the incident in question. This was not her first arbitration. She probably doesn't even remember it, but it was back in 1990 or 91 at a winter match at the Pathfinder Club in Fulton, NY. I don't remember the details but I do remember that there was a call made against her that she felt was improper. At 12 or 13 she knew the rule book frontwards and backwards. She filled in the arb form and I put up the $10 and it went on from there. Kris Kimball, one of the true gentlemen of the shooting sports, was on the committee and before they started, he took Julie aside and explained to her that they were about to made a decision based on the rules and the rules alone. It might turn out in her favor and it might not. Whichever the case, when it is all over, all parties will get together, accept the ruling with no hard feelings, shake hands and part as friends. I don't even remember if they ruled in her favor, but I know that the lesson Kris taught her is with her today. Perhaps we should all learn from that lesson. What is done is done. The ruling can not be overturned. If Julie says that the gun was illegal, and John F. and Dave O. agreed, then there is no doubt in my mind that the gun was illegal. But it doesn't matter. I know that the thought process that Julie went through was agonizing. She had all week to make her decision and she knew full well that in filing the protest she would be opening herself up to tremendous criticism. In the end, she did precisely the right thing in precisely the right manner. From that point on, things could have been handled differently. First of all, if Adam didn't have anything to hide, then why hide? He had to know that there were people questioning the legality of his firearm. If I were Adam (or his manager) and I knew that the firearm in question was perfectly legal, I would have walked to a safety area after shooting a stage, laid the gun on the table and asked anyone who wanted to take pictures of it to do so. He would immediately defused the situation. There was an absolute plethora of "RO" types from all over the world in attendance. Why did the MD not make up an arb committee consisting of knowledgable shooter/ro's who have no political baggage attached to themselves to hear this case? I am not saying this to demean the members of the committee who did hear the protest, but they all have political baggage. Just like having Adam offer his gun for inspection to defuse the situation, appointing an Arb committee made up of seasoned and very experienced individuals/competitors who are removed from both involved regions,the gun manufacturers involved and the day to day politics of IPSC, would have been a very wise thing to do. I have been involved in arbitrations--both from the standpoint of serving on committees and appointing people to them and believe me, it is a very difficult thing to do. You can't win. There are a lot of unanswered questions left in regards to this situation and most of them will remain un-answered. I learned long ago that these things can get beaten to death on these forums and little is gained. That is why I rarely post anything any more. If Julie was right, then someone got away with something. It happens all the time. My only advice to Julie at this point is to stand tall. You set a very fine example for all of us and I am so very proud of the person you have become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 (edited) ....I am...not allowed to visit the IPSC (not quite) Global Village. Would those of you with the access that are refering to posts over there mind copying and posting that info here for us peons? Thank you Jim Norman Edited August 29, 2005 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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