Managing Squad Size with Numerous 2 gun Shooters?

[RickT]

One of the matches my wife and I attend has gone to "One gun only".  This particular club has a very  high percentage of rimfire shooters and a percentage of those shoot two guns in addition to a handful shooting PCC /RFRO (for example), but this new restriction is a real bummer for someone, my wife for one, who is really into two guns (SS and RFRO).  Today's 8 stage match has 15 open positions out of 72 total (9/squad) and while I'm sympathetic to making room for walk-ons you can easily run an 8 stage match, 10/squad in four hours especially given this club does not paint between shooters.  How do other clubs handle this?  If they want to fill the squads but not get buried in entries just raise the price for the second gun.

 

I run a scaled down three  squad, six stage match and don't want to go over 10 guns/squad .  Since we don't do online registration we have a 2-gun sign-up list, therefore first come first serve.  Works for us and folks are pretty understanding.  

[StuckinMS]

We try to even out those shooting multiple guns across all squads.  It helps speed things up.  

[RickT]

18 minutes ago, StuckinMS said:

We try to even out those shooting multiple guns across all squads.  It helps speed things up. 

That's something I had intended to suggest to the MD.  With 10 gun squads why not limit to two 2 gun shooters per squad for a total of 16 extra guns/match.  Plus, the match in question needs to get started on time including expecting everyone to be geared up, mags loaded at 0900 sharp

[ZackJones]

So if I drop my gun at this club would I not be DQ’d? (Yes it’s a trick question).

[StuckinMS]

2 hours ago, RickT said:

That's something I had intended to suggest to the MD.  With 10 gun squads why not limit to two 2 gun shooters per squad for a total of 16 extra guns/match.  Plus, the match in question needs to get started on time including expecting everyone to be geared up, mags loaded at 0900 sharp

How many stages do y'all shoot?  We typically shoot 5-6 stages.  But you are right, match must start shooting on time and RO needs to keep everything running and not allow shooter on deck to drag around.  We pick up brass after every shooter, but usually dedicate 2 people to pasting, 1 to keeping up score, RO with timer calls hits and 1 person setting steel.  All others help as they can.  It allows finishing shooter time to reload mags and waiting shooter to do whatever walk through he/she can do before targets are pasted.  2 guns is tough, but if everyone works it can be done successfully.  We have about 20-30 shooters at a match and about 6-8 that shoot 2 guns.  Spreading them out is best.  Otherwise that will be the last squad to finish the match.  If you shoot 2 guns it is important once you finish shooting the first gun you change your belt rig and reload mags immediately getting you ready for the next gun.  And space that person with 2/3 shooters between guns.

[RickT]

The particularly club, SLOSA in San Luis Obispo, uses 8 stages, so all steel challenge stages each match.  No belt rig issues.  In fact 99% of two gun shooters are shooting pistol/rifle.   They generally don't have to do teardown after the match since there is a rimfire match the following weekend.

 

Zach,  your riddle presents an obvious answer.  Two gun shooters should simply register with an alias and wear a wig shooting the second gun.  I have a regular shooter in my small match who has, in addition to his given name, two Cowboy monikers depending on what he is shooting; we embrace Cowfolk diversity.

[StuckinMS]

Steel challenge matches should be lots easier to manage than USPSA matches in that scenario.  I know of a club that makes the 2nd gun shoot the match after the first gun has completed the match.  For me that just makes for a very long day.  I do not see where on steel challenge it would matter if there were 10 squad members shooting 1 gun or 5 squad members shooting 2 guns.  Just spraying between shooters doesn't add any time to the match.  Good luck with your request to the MD.

[MemphisMechanic]

We shoot second gun ... after first gun has concluded. Form a couple new squads and go back through everything as a new group.

 

First gun is usually 10a-1:30 or so pm. Then if you want to go back through the whole match again? Great . Swap guns, eat a quick lunch, and stay out there til 3 or 4! Have fun.

 

But we aren’t waiting around for you to swap guns and step back up to the line on our first pass through 6 bays.

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[Hammer002]

12 hours ago, ZackJones said:

So if I drop my gun at this club would I not be DQ’d? (Yes it’s a trick question).

 

Oh, thats clever.

 

Our club does 12 shooter squads.  If shooting up to 2 guns, you simply register in two positions.  Shouldn't make a difference, 12 guns being 12 guns.  I also like to follow the new level ii and iii rule of one competitor between the 2 guns.  Haven't seen an issue.

[RickT]

I really don't know the  issue.  The club isn't filling squads at 10 entries/guns per squad and even shooting 8 stages things get over by 1pm.  Generally, the squads are run pretty efficiently, but one squad with 2-3 new shooters and malfunctions can really back things up.  It's very important to get the squad sizes balanced out and I don't know if that has always been the case.  I know form my personal experience it's easier said than done.  Two friends show up late and it takes a certain amount of discipline to put them in separate squads; "worse" yet, a couple with a son/daughter where you can't really split them up.  

[zzt]

One club I shoot at limits squad size to ten shooters, and does allow two guns.  That being said, there should be no more than two 2-gun shooters on the same squad.  If there are, there are not enough people available to repaint after every shooter.

 

The other club I shoot SC at requires only one gun per match, unless there is a compelling reason a regular shooter cannot make the afternoon match.  The limit, not often reached, is two 2-gun shooters per squad.  The two 2-gun shooters shoot first, regardless of where their names appear in the shooting order.  They shoot their second gun in the normal rotation.

[rowdyb]

I don't know how to write this without it probably angering someone so I apologize for my lack of language skills to phrase things in a nicer way.

 

From my limited experience the SC matches I go to, most of the competitors are in a rimfire division versus centerfire. So most guns aren't in a holster with all mags on their belt. Most of them also spend more time sitting than standing at a match. And most of them are neither young, nor svelte, nor doing much SC based dry fire. So I find the natural rhythm of most competitors in a SC match to be slower than other types of matches, for a variety of reasons.

 

Add in some futzing around with a second gun and things can drag. Not that they have to, but the potential is there. The shooting may be super fast, but the general attitude and turn over seems to lack any drive/impetus for hurry up. The lazy Sunday drive effect.

 

If the person tasked with running the match has to wait for every last person to finish and make sure all is put away and uploaded before they feel the match is done, I can see why they limit numbers. There is no time a match director can save by getting the stage "reset" as it were. With no taping or moving targets or walking around scoring the biggest effect on time is the efficiency of the shooters themselves. Bagging and unbagging, checking optics, making ready, staging mags, practicing their draw or presentation. And I just don't see it.

 

To me it's a shooter problem, not a match admin problem.

[Hammer002]

I simply have trouble following so much of this.  The club I shoot at must just do an amazing job.  Well, I know they do.  They shoot 6 sc stages hosting close to 100 guns any given sunday.  Every once in a while, we will see a difference in efficiency between a squad of experienced shooters vs new shooters, but the club usually splits their board members among the squads.  As said, registration is 12 spots per squad.  That can be any combination between 12 people and 6 people with 2 guns.  It should make zero difference who is behind what gun as far as being the same or another person.  12 guns is 12 guns.  I simply cannot wrap my head around what is gained by not letting someone shoot 2 guns, yet putting another competitor on the squad with another gun.  It sounds like a lot of inexperience at all levels.  I have no problem painting between shooters, loading mags, and even ROing.  Even with new shooters, explanation of how it’s done at the new shooter meeting is helpful as well as ROs and experienced shooters helping with the tasks needed. Steel challenge is so simple, I simply cannot follow how it’s being made so complicated.  Why does it matter if magazines are on belt or not, or gun in holster or bag?  If your RO and tablet person are calling the order and calling people to the line while painting is going on, there should be no difference between a rimfire/PCC shooter and, say, a GM taking the box and going through a GM make ready.  Lol.  Seriously though, the competitor should already know he/she is up next and come to the line as others are going down to paint.  Mags staged and whatnot during painting.  Rarely see where the shooter is not ready and waiting on the painters to unbag.  Once clear, make ready as any other competitor, bagged or holstered.  Bagging and unbagging can take slightly longer, but slightly at best.  Now if everybody is just doing the shoot, paint, now who is up routine, that’s a problem, cause then the person not having been told to come to the line has to go get their stuff.  I dunno, you guys are making me feel even more grateful for the clubs in this area.  Absolutely cannot fathom limiting people to one gun or making them shoot it at a second go around?  How does that possibly make it faster?  I guess u let your other competitors shooting one gun go home early?  Man...you guys sound like you have it rough.  Sorry.  It should be so easy.  The match has to be run well.  The squad has to be run well.  The strings have to be run well.  The order has to be run well.  If these things aren’t happening, it doesn’t matter how many shooters you have, nor how many multiple gun shooters.  A poorly run match/squad is a problem no matter the circumstances nor type of match.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Hammer002

[tyman1876]

I simply have trouble following so much of this.  The club I shoot at must just do an amazing job.  Well, I know they do.  They shoot 6 sc stages hosting close to 100 guns any given sunday.  Every once in a while, we will see a difference in efficiency between a squad of experienced shooters vs new shooters, but the club usually splits their board members among the squads.  As said, registration is 12 spots per squad.  That can be any combination between 12 people and 6 people with 2 guns.  It should make zero difference who is behind what gun as far as being the same or another person.  12 guns is 12 guns.  I simply cannot wrap my head around what is gained by not letting someone shoot 2 guns, yet putting another competitor on the squad with another gun.  It sounds like a lot of inexperience at all levels.  I have no problem painting between shooters, loading mags, and even ROing.  Even with new shooters, explanation of how it’s done at the new shooter meeting is helpful as well as ROs and experienced shooters helping with the tasks needed. Steel challenge is so simple, I simply cannot follow how it’s being made so complicated.  Why does it matter if magazines are on belt or not, or gun in holster or bag?  If your RO and tablet person are calling the order and calling people to the line while painting is going on, there should be no difference between a rimfire/PCC shooter and, say, a GM taking the box and going through a GM make ready.  Lol.  Seriously though, the competitor should already know he/she is up next and come to the line as others are going down to paint.  Mags staged and whatnot during painting.  Rarely see where the shooter is not ready and waiting on the painters to unbag.  Once clear, make ready as any other competitor, bagged or holstered.  Bagging and unbagging can take slightly longer, but slightly at best.  Now if everybody is just doing the shoot, paint, now who is up routine, that’s a problem, cause then the person not having been told to come to the line has to go get their stuff.  I dunno, you guys are making me feel even more grateful for the clubs in this area.  Absolutely cannot fathom limiting people to one gun or making them shoot it at a second go around?  How does that possibly make it faster?  I guess u let your other competitors shooting one gun go home early?  Man...you guys sound like you have it rough.  Sorry.  It should be so easy.  The match has to be run well.  The squad has to be run well.  The strings have to be run well.  The order has to be run well.  If these things aren’t happening, it doesn’t matter how many shooters you have, nor how many multiple gun shooters.  A poorly run match/squad is a problem no matter the circumstances nor type of match.

I think a majority of the time the reason for not letting people shoot 2 guns is to allow more people in general to shoot the match. I don’t care where you go or how great your club is, at some point there is a limit to how many competitors you can have in a single day.

Any match that I have seen that has a 1 gun limit is either full or nearly full every month. The clubs with less attendance never seems to have a problem allowing second guns to fill empty slots.

I’d shoot 4 guns if it could but I’d rather see interest in the sport go up by allowing more people to participate.

[zzt]

Exactly.  The club that limits you to one gun per match is wait listed a month before each match.

[conditionone]

Shooting two divisions is not a problem at our club. The shooting order is set up so everyone shoots their first or only gun. Then the two division shooters shoot their second gun.

Shooters that shoot two divisions can not shoot both guns back to back.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hammer002]

3 hours ago, tyman1876 said:

 

I think a majority of the time the reason for not letting people shoot 2 guns is to allow more people in general to shoot the match. I don’t care where you go or how great your club is, at some point there is a limit to how many competitors you can have in a single day.

Any match that I have seen that has a 1 gun limit is either full or nearly full every month. The clubs with less attendance never seems to have a problem allowing second guns to fill empty slots.

I’d shoot 4 guns if it could but I’d rather see interest in the sport go up by allowing more people to participate.

 

 

Very good point.  Now it makes sense.  Our bigger club match has the luxury of numerous bays.  In fact, last month they added another squad to accommodate more entries.  They have been doing “outlaw” style stages too for a little change and to add squads.  Had two last month. Been a blast.  I could see where if space was a limiting factor tough decisions would have to be made.  The smaller local match I go to could run into that if it continues to grow. They can only accommodate three squads due to only three bays available.  Again, I feel very fortunate to have the large club in my backyard.  Even our monthly uspsa club matches are like going to a state match.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Hammer002

[RickT]

The club in question has 8 bays so 80+ guns should be no problem; I've never seen 80 guns at the match.  The key is efficiency including having one squad member who is the "official" RO with squad efficiency one of his important duties (+ safety + rules enforcement+).  Six hours in the car (R/T) is a long way to shoot one gun.  I did send a lengthy e-mail to the MD with suggestions regarding match efficiency.

 

[Paul B]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I have to air some frustration. I guess you could call it shooter burnout but I stopped shooting USPSA matches after over 30 years of shooting or working matches mainly because the squad sizes and the 'stand around" time just became to large and long overshadowing the fun of the competition. Match directors are probably just trying to accommodate more shooters but it often turns into an all day, dawn to dusk, stand around affair and that is often incompatible with any other family or personal obligations. I am seeing squad sizes of up to 20 people with 15 being the norm. At 3 minutes per shooter, with no problems, that is 45 minutes per stage and with 6 stages that is at least 7-8 hours adding in set-up, sign-up, and tear-down, not to mention travel time.

 

SCSA has now become much more popular and is suffering the same problems. I have left matches because I was waiting well over an hour and a half between shooting due to squad sizes of overtly 10 but with 2 guns each it becomes a squad of 20. additionally I now see squad sizes on practiscore of 15 again. I can only socialize so much without beer and nachos.

 

The discussion above is very good at how these matches should be organized - squad sizes should be based on the guns not the shooters and limited to 10 guns per squad. That way matches do not drag on and on. I know if I want it changed then volunteer to run it - been there and done that for over 30 years and while I will help, I do not even want to work a match that takes that long.

 

The solution is limit squad sizes to 10 guns - add stages or matches (different day) or limit participation if needed.

[Intheshaw1]

The club I run at has you register a second time on practiscore to limit the gun number, not participant number.

[zzt]

For the last two years all the clubs I shoot SCSA at limit the number of guns in a squad, not shooters.  One limits it to 10 guns per squad.  I shoot on a squad with five two-gun shooters often.  It goes like clockwork.  We are often finished before the 10 single gun shooter squad is, and we have to wait.

 

A second club limits squads to 12 guns, with a max of four 2-gun shooters per squad.  A third will allow up to 15 shooters per squad, and will rebalance if necessary.

[jrdoran]

My experience is much like Steve's.   Via practiscore the number of guns are limited in the squad.   Most of the people who shoot 2 guns are experienced and help move things along.      While there are lots of reasons a squad can be slow, what is frustrating is when our squad is moving along and then 'blocked' on the next stage by a squad that has 1 painter or inefficient in shooter swaps. 

[zzt]

After thinking about some of the comments here, I've decided that if I cannot shoot two guns in a match I won't sing up.  Some of the clubs are just too far away to make a single gun worthwhile.  The way all three clubs I routinely shoot at handle two-gun shooters is you go through the entire squad in normal rotation, then the second guns shoot in order.  The notion that the second gun shoots after everyone has shot the match is plain silly.  That's not two guns at the match, that's two one gun matches on the same day.

[zzt]

12 hours ago, jrdoran said:

While there are lots of reasons a squad can be slow, what is frustrating is when our squad is moving along and then 'blocked' on the next stage by a squad that has 1 painter or inefficient in shooter swaps. 

 

There is always one of those squads.  I can't stand it.  It adds an hour to the shoot.  The same buffoons sign up together on the same squad a yak it up instead of shooting.  Three of them are literally huge.  They waddle when they walk.  They each shoot two guns and reload so slowly they almost never get up to paint.  I was paired with them and another RO.  Five two gun shooters where three of the shooters did no work.  I was exhausted at the end of the 8 stage match, because two of us had to RO, shoot and paint our own targets.  We were two hours overtime and I had to skip the last stage because I had to be home at a certain time.

 

Last match at Pricetown there was a bonus.  The MD said if you were stacked up behind a slow squad, finished early AND the following squad hadn't shown up to shoot yet, you could shoot the same stage as practice until they did show up.  Nobody on my squad went home with any ammo left.  I'm bringing extra ammo to the next shoot.  It's good practice and beats standing around tapping your foot.

Edited September 18, 2020 by zzt

[Joe4d]

what about skipping them, if they are that slow. Everyone is happy. Seems to reason if you are catching them and backing up, then the next squad is leaving them behind. should be an empty stage at some point.
I am gonna have to see what mechanicsville VA is shooting. Weather is getting better finally and I know they used to shoot steel . Sounds like fun... Tired of a string of second places at pins. Need some more trigger time.