RJH Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I have come to believe that Carry ops guns will slowly gain traction and end up being a major division. Obviously it will take time. first I was a carry ops hater, then there werer rule adjustments that I thought made the division much more viable and, I think, fun.. But I never thought It could really overtake limited even in many years, then a couple things happened. Shane Coley shooting carry ops beat Nils using a limited gun at one of the area matches, and then a more local shooter just switched to carry ops and was able to beat some good shooters with their limited guns. I have no idea what Coley shoots, but I do know the local guy was using a very basic glock, that for his whole rig was under $1000. So I guess what I am saying is that you can get limited or better placement in the overalls but for much less money than the standard limited gun rig cost. Now I know we are not supposed to look at the overalls, but we do, and as more people see that they can place in about the same place or higher with a carry ops gun as a limited gun that cost substantially more, I think that carry ops will begin to be the "graduating place" that people go to after they have shot a few matches and are ready to commit more fully to USPSA. Am I nuts, or does anyone else see this coming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticeOfToren Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 No, because minor vs. major, until CO can shoot major too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, JusticeOfToren said: No, because minor vs. major, until CO can shoot major too. That is exactly what I thought a first, but the dot seems to at least, if not more than, make up the difference. Seeing good shooters shoot just as well or better with the carry ops gun as they do with the limited has begun to change my mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCTaylor Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I"m seeing some hotshot CO shooters beating the Limited guys. In the end it's about points per second and I feel a good CO shooter will be better than the average limited shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) , Well, yeah - CO has the advantage of a red dot sight. It's still not apples to apples. Add the major vs minor issue, and they're even more different divisions.that'swhy. That's why the divisions are scored separately. Give them both the same equipment and see where they end up. That's how the sport works. Edited January 17, 2018 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Also depends on the difficulty of the stages; lots of tough partials can cause minor shooters to bleed out points. Lots of tough steel could push it back in COs favor. 22 round stages........ etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 54 minutes ago, RJH said: then a couple things happened. Shane Coley shooting carry ops beat Nils using a limited gun at one of the area matches, no he didn't. they shoot different divisions. beating someone in another division is not a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revoman Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 55 minutes ago, motosapiens said: no he didn't. they shoot different divisions. beating someone in another division is not a thing. In some people’s minds it is ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 54 minutes ago, motosapiens said: no he didn't. they shoot different divisions. beating someone in another division is not a thing. Moto, I think you are being intentionally obtuse here :-) We all know that the overalls are just for fun, but it is also the only gauge we really have of comparing like shooters, across different divisions, over an entire match to see what difference equipment makes. My point is that like shooters, shooting limited or carry ops, seem to perform relatively the same. Add the fact that carry ops is considerably cheaper to shoot and it would seem to be a more natural step for shooters than the jump to limited to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I’m not buying the money aspect of the original post. You don’t need a 5k 2011 in limited. A good limited shooter with a basic Glock shooting major is also going to be around the same spot as that carry optics setup in the overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, Garmil said: I’m not buying the money aspect of the original post. You don’t need a 5k 2011 in limited. A good limited shooter with a basic Glock shooting major is also going to be around the same spot as that carry optics setup in the overall. While this is technically true, it is not often the case. If you consider what most call a basic limited gun, say an edge, even buying used, you are looking at a couple grand for an entire rig. Ammo cost is more as well, but not a huge amount. Most people that start USPSA have a gun that would be very competitive in carry ops, with a little work and a dot, but even if they didn't, you could put something together for ~$1000. Since the guns seem compare favorably, carry ops seems the more natural progression to me. Trust me, I never thought I would come to this conclusion, but the facts are there :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, RJH said: Moto, I think you are being intentionally obtuse here :-) We all know that the overalls are just for fun, but it is also the only gauge we really have of comparing like shooters, across different divisions, over an entire match to see what difference equipment makes. My point is that like shooters, shooting limited or carry ops, seem to perform relatively the same. Add the fact that carry ops is considerably cheaper to shoot and it would seem to be a more natural step for shooters than the jump to limited to me I'm just naturally obtuse, even when I'm not trying. Without a doubt, Limited sometimes has an advantage, and CO sometimes has an advantage, depending on the stage setup. But who cares? They are different divisions. As to 'considerably cheaper to shoot', I don't think the cost difference is enough to even notice. fwiw, I agree that CO is probably going to be a popular division. We're seeing a lot more folks experimenting with it this year. I even got a CO gun, for under a grand, lightly used.... however it is nowhere near the quality of a slightly more expensive limited gun. In my experience, most of the cost of this sport is not the gun. Most of it is travel, match fees, bullets, classes, etc..... A few hundred dollars in initial equipment cost is a non-issue. Edited January 17, 2018 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 You mentioned Shane Coley. He won Limited Nationals last year shooting a Glock. So Limited is only more expensive than CO if you want it to be And as for people who choose a division based solely on trying to place highest in overall results... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herky Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Aging shooters, bad eyes, etc. Started this sport before there were divisions and love Limited, but can see the writing on the wall, even if it is blurry. Glad there is a division where my eyes are not a hinerance. CO and PCC will continue to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody6477 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Different divisions = different toys = different games. Shoot what's fun for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacivilian Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 This thread is like saying that Carry Optics will replace Open one day solely on the fact that Max is destroying many open division shooters with his Carry Optics rig. Limited isn't going anywhere, people have their favorite divisions for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 12 minutes ago, lacivilian said: This thread is like saying that Carry Optics will replace Open one day solely on the fact that Max is destroying many open division shooters with his Carry Optics rig. Limited isn't going anywhere, people have their favorite divisions for a reason. Actually this thread is saying that you can shoot he same or better hit factors as limited with a rig that cost considerably less money. If I would have said that open>limited or limited>production, no one would have batted an eye. But when I say that the upstart is equal to or better than a "higher end" division, people get offended, strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 17 minutes ago, lacivilian said: This thread is like saying that Carry Optics will replace Open one day solely on the fact that Max is destroying many open division shooters with his Carry Optics rig. Limited isn't going anywhere, people have their favorite divisions for a reason. Max isn't "destroying" bunches of Open shooters. He's winning CO pretty steadily, and that's because he's one of the best shooters we have and crosstrains with passion. Don't forget, we shoot against our own division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 2017 Indiana Section, first CO shooter was 22n overall. (in the fake, only matters on practiscore way of looking hahahaha) '17 Greater Yellowstone Section, first CO shooter was 9th overall '17 Norcal Golden Bullet Sectional, first CO shooter was 11th overall. '17 Arkansas Section, first CO shooter was 20th overall. '17 Florida Section, first CO shooter was 26th overall. (matches picked at random) '17 Area 7. first CO was 3rd overall '17 Area 8, first CO was 15th overall '17 Area 3, first CO was 60th overall '17 Area 6, first CO was 25th overall '17 Area 2, first CO was 5th overall. Not sure that even means anything just yet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 The vast majority of the deficit between CO and Open is minor scoring. I've always felt the dot is by far the most important equipment advantage of Open. I don't think comps mean much if your grip and stance fundamentals are solid. Big sticks save very little time over the course of most matches, depends on stage design. If someone shot a match in Open, then executed the same match equally in CO, I'd expect the CO run to be around 10% behind the Open run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashDodson Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 I slapped a dot on my limited gun as a training aid, and for fun. At the local level I have been competitive with the open ballers around my area. Round count comes into play on some stages as I only have 140mm mags. I am honestly not sure I could shoot much faster with a full open rig. Targets like medium-long distance steel arrays or plate racks a full open rig does seem to have an edge over my setup. Shooting major has me beating some salty PCC guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpierrat Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 My reason was the same as Herky's Old eyes see dots so much better.... Just takes time in the saddle to get the dot/grip relationship to where it is always there when the gun comes up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviSS Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 When does CO become an official, non-provisional division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 On 1/18/2018 at 6:55 PM, RJH said: Actually this thread is saying that you can shoot he same or better hit factors as limited with a rig that cost considerably less money. well, this thread is lying then. because a decent CO rig is not considerably less expensive than a decent limited rig, even tho lots of people spend way more money than they need to on a limited gun, because freedom yo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 24 minutes ago, motosapiens said: well, this thread is lying then. because a decent CO rig is not considerably less expensive than a decent limited rig, even tho lots of people spend way more money than they need to on a limited gun, because freedom yo. This was debated further up, but about half cost for a reasonable and realistic rig, not bottom barrel limited vs top end carry ops or the other way around , so probably not lying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now