United Multi-Gun League?

[ziebart]

I have a feeling most of it is on stage design.

[StealthyBlagga]

On 1/28/2018 at 9:44 AM, Schutzenmeister said:

 

I would be interested to see the list of these when they become finalized ...

 

We have just posted updated 2018 IMA rules: LINK

 

 

The 2018 USPSA Multigun rules we took exception to are covered in the following IMA rules:

 

IMA Rule 1.9.1 "The following USPSA rule sections and their subsections specifically do not apply: 1.1.5, 4.3.5, 6.4, 8.4.2, 9.2, 9.3.3, 9.3.4, 9.3.5, 9.5.3.4, 9.5.3.5, 9.5.5, 9.8.3, 9.9.2, 10.2.9, 10.2.14, 11, Appendices A-F."

 

Most of these USPSA sections and rules simply do not apply to non-USPSA matches (required credentials, match levels, hit factor scoring etc.). Some apply excessive (in our view) constraints on stage design, targetry etc. Others are USPSA handgun dogma that are over-burdensome in the multigun context. A couple are penalty related, which reflect an honest difference of opinion (scoring disappearing targets, gun abandonment policy etc.). The vast majority of these disagreements are carry-overs from previous versions of USPSA MG rules, just with different rule numbers.

IMA Rule 2.3 "Firearms may only be handled in one of the following, clearly designated areas: ..."

 

Honestly, I had been hoping (indeed, I suggested) that USPSA would address this issue because I see all sorts of inappropriate gun handling at multigun matches, and this is just the kind of match administration issue that USPSA excels at. In the absence of USPSA guidance, we have tried to codify what has become standard practice at our matches. At SMM3G we will be posting signs so everyone is clear on what conduct is allowed in each such area.

 

IMA Rule 2.4.1.1 "Exception: The text in USPSA 10.5.10 “Placing the safety on a loaded long gun into the off position after it has been placed in the on position between assuming the start position and the start signal, or” and the related note under USPSA 8.1.2.1 do not apply. Instead, such conduct will incur a procedural penalty per rule 6.1.11."

 

I have expressed my disapproval of this new USPSA rule elsewhere. It was not in the draft that was published for comment, and I am sure I and others would have spoken out against it had it been. We (IMA) have therefore had to create a special carve-out to avoid DQing folks for what has long been an established practice and is certainly not, by any stretch of the imagination, "unsafe gun handling".

 

IMA Rule 6.1.4 "Knock-down targets (e.g. Pepper Poppers) must fall to score. Unless otherwise stipulated in the stage briefing, multiple targets falling due to a single shot will not be declared range equipment failure unless the Range Master determines that the subject targets are not functioning as designed. Swinging/flashing targets must react in the manner prescribed in the stage briefing. An Event Official may call hits."

 

This was another carve-out to protect established practice that was lost when USPSA amalgamated some related rules. No real change in practice.

 

 

I hope this is clear - feel free to let me know by IM or in this thread if you have any questions.

 

 

 

 

 

[Odawgp]

On 1/10/2018 at 8:04 AM, TonytheTiger said:

Lame. Might as well call everybody a winner.

nope just the division winners. overall will become a thing of the past.  Ive shot alot of formats 3GN, USPSA,IDPA,NRA bullseye ,USPSAMG ect and UML is by far the best format I've seen. The rules have been taken from many other rule sets out there and combined and simplified.  Scoring being the biggest improvement simple time plus, courses of fire are universal and aren't seen as favoring or hindering one division over another.  Its also the fastest match format around, 90+ shooters 5 stages in 4 hours. id shoot local uspsa matches if they could figure that out. 

[ericm]

13 hours ago, Odawgp said:

Its also the fastest match format around, 90+ shooters 5 stages in 4 hours. id shoot local uspsa matches if they could figure that out. 

 

90 shooters / 5 stages = 18 shooters per squad

5 stages in 4 hours = 48 minutes per stage

48 minutes per stage / 18 shooters = 2 minutes 40 seconds per shooter NONSTOP for 4 hours.

It took me longer than 2:40 to type this....

Hyperbole will not sell this UML that you speak of...

 

mi dos centavos

ericm

[Darqusoull13]

You can definitely tell Ericm has done this before and I 100% agree. If you're running 90 shooters through 5 stages in 4 hours you're running 6 shot classifiers, not 40+ round shotgun stages that take 60-80 seconds to shoot and 3 minutes after to reset and prep the next shooter at BEST. 

I will agree that 2 on paper/ 1A scoring is faster than hit factor, but don't get too carried away. UML so far is in a good place. I'm very hopeful that Pete listens to clubs hosting 60+ shooters twice a month for the rules due to be released soon. As the rules are now, I'd adopt them for my club. There are a couple of "Hard No's" that if included in the next iteration of rules, I'll simply say no thanks. 

[atomicferret]

On 2/26/2018 at 8:12 AM, Darqusoull13 said:

You can definitely tell Ericm has done this before and I 100% agree. If you're running 90 shooters through 5 stages in 4 hours you're running 6 shot classifiers, not 40+ round shotgun stages that take 60-80 seconds to shoot and 3 minutes after to reset and prep the next shooter at BEST. 

I will agree that 2 on paper/ 1A scoring is faster than hit factor, but don't get too carried away. UML so far is in a good place. I'm very hopeful that Pete listens to clubs hosting 60+ shooters twice a month for the rules due to be released soon. As the rules are now, I'd adopt them for my club. There are a couple of "Hard No's" that if included in the next iteration of rules, I'll simply say no thanks. 

Which rules would be a "hard No" for you?

[Darqusoull13]

These may sound silly to some, but understand these reasons are based on local shooters opinions. We try to encourage folks to shoot what they want to shoot as much as possible. 

• Keep suppressors legal in the rule set. If suppressors are specifically restricted I'm out. We have a large contingent of folks that come out to our match specifically to use their cans in competition. We also have enough local shooters that are capable of RO'ing even suppressed 22's. Comps are more advantageous in competition anyways so there's really no advantage to running a can.  
• Limiting Heavy to 45 pistols and pump shotguns. I don't so much care if there's a "Heavy Metal" division that has 45 and pump restrictions, but leave "Heavy Optics" or "Heavy Tac" with 9mm and semi auto shotguns. The folks that ACTUALLY shoot Heavy around us want the 9 and the semi auto shotguns. I know Denise and JJ have a whole match dedicated to the He-Men of the world, and that's cool as heck. 

[ziebart]

Darqusoull13,

 

- I am not sure which copy of the rules you are reading, but there is no prohibition on silencers in UML. I did just make an edit clarifying their use.

- UML has never limited Heavy to 45 pistols and pump shotguns. We are looking at changing the name to Tac 308 as the division is basically tactical with a 308 winchester minimum on rifle. While it may seem silly to change the name, I feel it is important to reduce the friction caused with other matches and organizations running IMHO true heavy (HeMan) rules. 

 

We plan to mark these final in the next couple days and then only make changes once per year in January. I thought these were good rules until clubs from around the country had questions and then I needed to make clarifications on things that were implied. 

[Darqusoull13]

My reply was based on a previous question asking which POTENTIAL NEW rules would prevent me from adopting UML rules at a local match. I wrote in a previous post "As the rules are now, I'd adopt them for my club." 

 

The rules are good and really am a fan of what you and Pete are doing. I have emailed Pete saying as much and inquired specifically about clarifications in 2x4 and other divisions. Most clarifications were simply my lack of familiarity with the intent and the history of the rule set. I appreciate how open and transparent everyone has been about what rules are being considered. That transparency, specifically the discourse related to possibly switching the Heavy to pump and 45, was what I was referencing. 

Again, it's y'alls BBQ and it tastes good. I'm excited to see the new rules and hopefully see Tac 2x4 become a reality 

[iamspartacus]

I feel the exact opposite way. As MD for my club, I won't adopt uml unless they make heavy pump shotgun and .45 pistol. We have a larger heavy contingent at our club than most and I wont change the rules on them.

[ziebart]

I want to make a public apology to Darqusoull13. I misread his post.

That said we do not plan on changing the items mentioned. There was some talk about it on a FB live video to see what the majority of people wanted, but nobody really swayed the division to pump and 45s. Too many times a organization has relied on polls and they always end up skewed with results that do not reflect what is "correct". Not everyone is on FB or Enos and then you have people that don't shoot the division making suggestions. If heavy ever gets to a point where there is no question that there are more than 30 shooters at most majors then we can consider making two divisions. Until then the division has trouble meeting a reasonable depth so it is not feasible to split the already small pool.

 

It is unfortunate the pump and 45 remain a wedge between the heavy shooters, but it seems like it is a core belief for many and I am not going to try and sway people one way or the other. 

[TXHK]

15 hours ago, iamspartacus said:

I feel the exact opposite way. As MD for my club, I won't adopt uml unless they make heavy pump shotgun and .45 pistol. We have a larger heavy contingent at our club than most and I wont change the rules on them.

Agreed! Heavy= Pump and .45.  Allowing a bipod (ala RM3G) would be a nice perk too.

 

[WmKerle]

Hi all can some one clear this up for me.  I'm a heavy metal fan but under the United Multi-Gun League rules is it still 1shot on each target for rifle and pistol or is it 2 shots on each target.

[ziebart]

1 A or 2 anywhere for rifle and pistol, the same as every other division.

[IHMSA15151]

I have only shot one UML match so I am not really up on the rules yet. I have shot several 3 Gun Nation and USPSA Multi-gun matches though. What makes UML Heavy Metal Division actually "heavy metal" if you allow 9mm and semi-auto shotguns? Is it the type of firearm instead of caliber? I always though the category was for 45acp and 12 ga. pump kind of folks.

[ziebart]

I feel like you are trolling, but I'll answer anyways.

 

HM has gone by a couple different names and different rules based on the match you attend. Pump and 45 to me means he-man which is shot at Rocky Mountain.

 

To reduce some of the teeth grinding UML has changed their HM division name to Tac 308. While it may not be much, hopefully it reduces confusion between UML and purists like RM3G. Hopefully there will always be places like RM3G that provide a place for pumps and 45 to play.

[iamspartacus]

I just don't like that with these rules the pump shotgun has no real place to be competitive. I allowed semi shotguns into my match in heavy but I give the pumps an equalizer by letting them start with 13 while semis start with 9.

[ziebart]

That is an option and one of the things that has been tried. 3GN had an interesting idea to meld the irons/scope heavy divisions a few years ago, but it never really panned out. I have had several ideas to equalize divisions or equipment so that they could all compete in one division, but I felt that any solution I came up with had too many other issues.

[71Commander]

Why is heavy metal 9mm?

Edited March 26, 2018 by 71Commander

[ziebart]

It isn't, and that is why the name changed for UML. 

[bluedevil008]

It's been many years since I've seen a match, or a shooter shoot an actual "Heavy Metal" set up with .45, pump shotgun and .308.  Those shooters are pretty much non existent nowadays so I don't see the point in adding a division for a dozen shooters across the U.S.

[iamspartacus]

1 hour ago, bluedevil008 said:

It's been many years since I've seen a match, or a shooter shoot an actual "Heavy Metal" set up with .45, pump shotgun and .308.  Those shooters are pretty much non existent nowadays so I don't see the point in adding a division for a dozen shooters across the U.S.

Just because you aren't seeing it doesn't mean heavy metal isn't still being enjoyed. We had 9 shooters in heavy metal at Blue Ridge this last year and my monthly match has between 2 and 10 HM shooters every month. 

[Rookie]

1 hour ago, bluedevil008 said:

It's been many years since I've seen a match, or a shooter shoot an actual "Heavy Metal" set up with .45, pump shotgun and .308.  Those shooters are pretty much non existent nowadays so I don't see the point in adding a division for a dozen shooters across the U.S.

Last weekend's SMM3G fielded 30 competitors in the HM Division (approximately 10% of the total competitors).  I understand that the 2018 Heman Nationals, held in Raton NM this May is full...  I suggest that there is more than a dozen of us around the sport that enjoy the challenge of competing with a 308, 45 and pump action 12 Gauge.

[bluedevil008]

3 hours ago, Rookie said:

Last weekend's SMM3G fielded 30 competitors in the HM Division (approximately 10% of the total competitors).  I understand that the 2018 Heman Nationals, held in Raton NM this May is full...  I suggest that there is more than a dozen of us around the sport that enjoy the challenge of competing with a 308, 45 and pump action 12 Gauge.

 

My understanding is that is a very local-heavy match.  I'm glad you guys have a place for your particular guns.  Are there any other matches that are like that?  

 

-9 shooters at Blue Ridge is not many.

[IHMSA15151]

On 3/22/2018 at 3:47 PM, ziebart said:

I feel like you are trolling, but I'll answer anyways.

 

HM has gone by a couple different names and different rules based on the match you attend. Pump and 45 to me means he-man which is shot at Rocky Mountain.

 

To reduce some of the teeth grinding UML has changed their HM division name to Tac 308. While it may not be much, hopefully it reduces confusion between UML and purists like RM3G. Hopefully there will always be places like RM3G that provide a place for pumps and 45 to play.

No trolling here.....just easily confused. Thanks for the clarification, lots of new categories and new rules. Being an old blind guy who can't shoot irons anymore, I'm always in open or unlimited or what ever the term is anyway. No matter what they call it, it's still a lot of fun.