Tennis Elbow

[MBneACP]

Any new thoughts on getting rid of it?

Any secret remedies?

Physical therapy you've tried that works?

Weird Chinese smelly stuff to spread on said elbow?

The dry firing was no big deal, but hanging sheet rock in the [very cold] basement AND dry firing lit up my right elbow, which has always been a weak spot when I'm shooting a lot. Five or ten draws, and it feels like someone is pounding the damn thing with big sticks.

That cortizone shot is starting to look mighty good, despite my philosophical objection to stuff like that.

Am open to suggestions, group!

mb

[Paul Sharp]

Glucosamine Chondroitin and ibuprofren, forget milligrams, think tonnage.  

Pre-training: Some G/C, maybe some ibuprofren or other NSAID, good warmup, if things are really bad..., use a heating pad with moist/damp towel to assist warmup by actually "heating up" the joint before moving around to much.  I've tried a lot of topical stuff but the most common one I see around is the Flex-all 454, just make sure the area is scratch/abrasion free or you'll be doing a jig while your friends laugh and point at you...., very rude behaviour I might add, unless they are pointing and laughing at someone else.

During training - stay warm, long johns with a sweat shirt over top and maybe a neoprene wrap to assist keeping the warmth in, just make sure its not too tight.  Drink enough water and maybe pop a few of those ibuprofren's/NSAIDs when you get a chance.

After training - ICE! ASAP.  If I'm really hurting I fill my kitchen sinks, (double basin, so both sides) with cold water and some of those freezer packs you get for your cooler, its cheaper that way as opposed to buying bags of ice, suck it up and stick your elbows/arms completely under the water for as long as you can take it.  For the normal soreness I keep bags of frozen peas in the freezer, soon as I get home, I get the cold working for me, applied directly to the affected area and curse those that have no injuries...., you know, the Couch Potatoes.  More NSAIDs, rest, G/C and dream about moving to someplace warm and dry year-round.

[Flexmoney]

Ditto.

Here is some Q & A:

http://www.musclemedia.com/qa/questions.as...;subCatList=204

[EricW]

One thing I finally learned was the importance of keeping your joints warm before, during, and after a workout.  The US Cycling team is actually *prohibited* from cycling without full pants in temperatures below 70F.  The rule is designed to protect their knees.  Apparently this is not an arbitrary number.  They actually did research and determined that your joints wear much more when they're cold - and that the damage is irreversable.

I took a cue from that and started to wear running pants in the cold weather, even though I rarely feel cold while I'm working out.  It helped tremendously.  I just don't get the sore knees and legs like I used to.  I'll even wear pants in the gym if it's a little chilly while I'm warming up on the stairmaster and the treadmill.  I'm pretty sure that elbows are going to follow the same deal.

Here's some poop on tennis elbow:

(The second link is far more informative.)

http://www.tennis.com/sportscience/default...stompageid=3018

http://www.acsm.org/pdf/tennisel103101.pdf

Personally, I would avoid the cortizone except out of last-ditch desperation.  Cortizone, as I understand, causes as many problems as it "fixes."  

FWIW, according to one of my doctors, the recommended dosage one reads on a bottle of ibuprofen is ridiculously low.  He said that the original recommended dosage when it was a prescripton drug was something like 3000 miligrams a day.  Taking 800-1000 miligrams at a time is apparently not unreasonable - especially if you're heavy-set like me.  I'm 240-245 and I have to take 1000 mg to fee any effect at all.

Don't use Tylenol.  Bad Bad Bad over the long haul.  

[Trader]

It takes 3 asprin to even touch some relief for me. I wear an elbow brace (Mueller is the best one) more as prevention than a cure.

The shots I get are Depromedral ( sic?). They are the strongest anti inflamatory shot that exists. Between both of my elbows, over a period of years, I have had 13 of them.  In  most cases one shot is enough. They are 30 seconds of intense pain. The following day is also very painful as the medicine does its job on the inflamation. Two days after the shot you could have it out with a punching bag, pain free. I have been lucky for about 2  years now , and have not had any shots in that time frame.

There are also some oral meds , and physical therapy that may help some. For me, the shot is the only option.

(Edited by Trader at 9:21 pm on Mar. 3, 2003)

[ErikW]

This subject deserves a FAQ entry.

(Edited by Erik Warren at 6:59 pm on Mar. 3, 2003)

[MBneACP]

Thank you all SO much!

I feel like if I completely lay off preseason shooting (and physical) training, it's gonna come back to haunt me, but it hurts bad enough to wake me up in the middle of the night.

Will jack up glucosamine and Vitamin-A For Advil and seriously warm it up. I tried the Flex 454, which worked, but within 3 or 4 minutes my girlfriend eyes were swelling, tears running down her face, etc. Serious allergic reaction to it.

Again, thanks, and I think this does need an FAQ. When I did the thing down at the Olympic Center, of the 10 top action shooters down there, 8 had had major elbow problems...

Mb

[Nolan]

Mb,

The best elbow brace I've found is the "Band-It"  It's carried in most Golf and Tennis shops.  Don't get the magnetic one.  They changed the shape and it doesn't work as well as the regular one.

Here's a link to an overpriced online seller that has a photo of it (the guy in the photo{I hope it's a guy} is wearing it too tight).

http://www.painreliever.com/pro100.html

[gm iprod]

Just remember that Tennis Elbow is much better than Tennis Balls

[lynn jones]

just a thought...

are you locking your arms out? try breaking at the elbows.

lynn jones

[whiskey]

You need to become friends with the pain.Seriosly though,Paul Sharp covered it real well.Also ditto on the Muellar band($3 or$4 at Wally World).I have found that stretching the forearm helps quite a bit as well (hourly if you can).

[swill269]

i never planned to join this forum because of this very problem. i use to shoot hand gun metalic silhouette. now both elbows are too weak to support a med - larg hand gun and even if they were fine, both shoulders are trash too. most all of my shooting is off the bench now.

i have had the shots about three times each shoulder, once each elbow and one in the neck. when the doc says he is going to give you two injections, you are in for PAIN. the first one is to kill some of the pain from the second one. it is a streroid and it is disributed all around the area in small amounts but only one penetration. this means doc is moving the needle around like a gear shift lever. then it hurts like heck for 2-4 days then it feels better. i think they just hurt you real bad and it makes the original pain feel great.

my insurance was paying $30 per 15 min of cold and hot packs before and after pys. theropy. the packs they use are both freezeable and microwaveable, they are contoured to fit the specific area to be applied. some are even held in place with velcro straps and are reversable for right & left. they are not cheap ($25- up) depending on the application. i have a shoulder and elbow pack which i had to buy(no insurance coverage to buy only rent) . the shoulder pack covers neck, shoulderblade down to mid biceps and is strapped on. YOU MUST NEVER GET THEM WET!!!

"Elasto-Gel"

Southwest Technologies, Inc.

Kansas City, MO

800-247-9951

this is what is on the tag.

well back to the bench, good shooting and i hope this helps someone.

[MBaneACP]

Ii think I've pretty much done All Of The Above, and it seems to be pretty much in control. I did cut out push-ups and switched to 9mm pretty much exclusively, which takes some of the heat off my poor battered elbows. Also, Lynn, I'm trying hard not to lock out my elbows when I shoot, a bad habit I got into god knows when.

Again, thanks.

MB

[Les Snyder]

Michael....the following worked for me for tendonitis...not sure if is associated with your tennis elbow....but when I was a little more competitive 10 or so years ago, I almost had to quit, the pain was so bad....with upper arm supported on edge of arm chair, use a very light weight (can of corn) do very slow arm curls.... stretching out the tendon... about 30minutes a night, skip a night repeat for about 3 nights....I think mine was caised by the strain working the reloader handle on the up stroke...I used to sit down to reload... now stand up, bought a strong stand and roller handle for the 550 (Phelps case feeder) I got from you, but broke down and bought a 1050 last year... regards Les

[Guest Guest_Michael Carlin]

Hi,

New to this forum, bt have had extensive and painful experience with a sore ("tennis") elbow. Right, while shooting service pistol on an Army Area Team from 1984 to 1994, elbow sore until 1999 when I had surgery.

The term tennis elbow is often used, in my opinion, to describe an oversue injury to the tendons of the forearm, upper in the vicinity of the elbow.

Long story short, I am in the Army and it was not until I was at the Pentagon for an assignment that I met a sports medicine guy who (1) listened carefully (2) referred me to a surgeon, (3) the surgeon fixed the problem in a simple arthroscopic procedure, and I am a happy camper.

If you have "tennis elbow" for more than a year or so, see a sports medicine guy and ask about arthroscopic surgery indications.

Me right elbow is not 100%, if I abuse it, it will get sore, but it is miles ahead of where it was when I gave up bullseye pistol because of the pain.

Yours in Marksmanship

Michael

[MattBurkett]

Mb,

A few years ago when I was working my left arm to drive the gun way too much, my elbow problem cropped up. It got to the point where I couldn't grip up with the hand. Celebrex was the answer for me. Two weeks and bang its gone. It comes back every once in awhile to haunt me, but, a couple of those and its fixed right up again. I also started to use the natural cam of the hand to help out and started using less forward pressure with my left arm.

:-)

[Nate]

There is a lot of good information here. Matt, if you like Celebrex, you will love Viox. WARNING about Cortizone (sp?) While it has done me a LOT of good, you need to limit your lifetime number of injections as it DOES CAUSE GLAUCOMA when over used. I have also had good luck with gradual weight training to increase the strength in the surrounding joints. Nate

[rhino]

Too bad we can't get Vioxx anymore. I use Celebrex now and it just doesn't work as well for me.

The risks that recently were in the media were grossly overblown in my opinion, and the amount of good Vioxx can do for a lot of people outweighs the potential elevated risks.

[cking]

I had tennis elbow problem lucky for me I went to a good Doctor.

After the exam he said there is two ways to do this. Both are painful. He explained

You can go to physical therapy and pay or I can show you how to do it yourself.

Being cheap I said show me. He said OK come sit over here in this wooden chair. It was the old time with solid high wooden arm rest. My left arm was bothering me. I'm left handed. As I started to sit down the doc said put your right arms inside the armrest and sit on you hand. I said doc it my left arm that hurts. He said sit on you right hand. I did like I was told.

No he had also given me the handout that had some pics about what goes wrong, and exercises to help. Which other people have mention in this thread.

He started by taking him thumb and working along the upper part of my forearm. Saying tell me when I find a sore spot. He knew where to look, and I said yep that's it. He then explored around it tell me to tell him where is was and wasn't sore. He explained that I had adhesions for over doing it and the adhesions had to be broken up.

Next came the fun part. He said take a deap breath this is going to hurt. It did, he took his thumb and buried into that adhesion area. He worked that area over for good 10 minutes, it was softer in that area after he was done, and I was sweating. Now he iced it for 30 minutes and said take 4 isopropens. Do that nightly he said. Finally I asked why am I sitting on my right hand? He said to keep me from getting hit when I dug that thumb in!!!!!

I found that, that procedure works for my knees also. Find the adhesion break it up, Ice it and the isopropens.

The straps help if you know your going to abuse yourself, they will limit the injury.

[Mike H]

Cking, that is ART-Active Release Therapy. A good ART therapist is worth their weight in gold.

Tendonitis is caused by muscle imbalance leading to stressing the tendons and you have a problem. ART is a great step in therapy. Stretching the wrists/forearms appropriately is a key, as is a properly administered hand/wrist/forearm strength and conditioning program. You know if ART is being done correctly if your crying while someone's thumbs are digging into your forearm and asking if you can feel that knot.

A couple of new articles have recently come out in the the various Dr. mags which articulate rehab/stretching/conditioning programs versus a needle.

The key is to continually build up your strength and stretching ability. Stretching is a critical component because the more you stretch the tendon, the more blood flow, more blood flow, more the microscopic tears in the tendon that are tendonitis, can heal.

I honestly thought tendonitis would cause me to never fish, shoot or pull a bow back. It took about a year, but I'm back. Best of luck.

[jnshapiro]

I've been fighting with it since October of last year. I missed a couple of big shoots I had planned to go to as a result. Took 4 months off completly. That helped some. During that time I alternated heat and ice, massage therapy, lots of stretching, neoprene wrap, etc. It didn't get any better.

Finally went to the doc. He gave me a cortisone shot (bunch of other stuff in there too). Totally pain free for about 4 weeks, then it came back. But not nearly as bad as it had been. Still doing lots of stretching, heat and ice, massage, the ART described above, rest, etc.

Only shooting monthly type matches right now. Still hurts enough that I can't practice. But I can now tell that it is getting better. I think that be the end of October I might be back to normal.

Joel

[XRe]

I'll throw this in - at the risk of major skepticism, etc. I get some elbow pain here and there from playing drums. In addition to ice, stretching, etc, I've had great luck with acupuncture. It's not a substitute for the physical stuff - but it seems to speed healing and relieve some pain.

I don't want to get into a debate over it - just thought I'd add a data point.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

One thing I have learned about Tendonitis in the elbiw is to keep it under control, you need to excercise both the flexors and the extensors. This will help you get back into balance.

Regular Chiropractic adjustments, massage, and proper excercise help me a lot.

With my trade, I abuse me hands, arms, legs and back so I look for anything that will allow me to keep working and shooting.

Here is what my son gave me last year for Father's day. It works for the tendonitis. I use it watching television, driving, and whenever.

Regards,

[Tangram]

http://www.twist-o-grip.com/comment.htm

Learned about this device on the BE forum. Check it out with a knowledgable physical therapist first.

[Mike H]

roundgun shooter could you post a link or a trade name for that pic, that looks ideal for a strength/stretching device. www.ironmind.com has a whole litany of somewhat off the wall grip and strength devices, the heavy duty elasctic bands work very well for me.

XRE, you have more b*lls than I do, I thought about posting my success with acupuncture, but concern over skepticism prevented me. It did wonders for me. I believe it enabled the healing process to actually begin, with the ART and physical therapy enabling the slow re-building process to work.