Paul Sharp

"Just to clarify, the word "slap" implies a violent contact. It is not necesarely so. I'd say it's more akin to moving the finger like the trigger isn't there. A "bump" with the trigger occurs at some point in the finger's travel, but it's not violent, and, if your hand position, hand anatomy, how the grip fits you, and how your finger moves allow for a movement straight to the back, that "bump" will not cause a significant movement to the gun to throw off a shot. Like I said, I've shot "perfect" shots like this. I can only describe how I perceive the event. It is beyond me if you believe me or not." I've struggled for years to describe how I have been taught to work the trigger. That is the single best description I've come across. Mind if I use that in the future?

Thanks for your input guy's. This will be an everyday carry type pistol. We had several instructors recently that talked about the advantages to carrying a long slide type pistol IWB, when discretion is imperative. Basically, we were told that the 34 has more slide length so it anchors better. If that makes sense. I shot the 34 side by side with an XD Tactical for a week. These were stock, shooting carry type loads. For me the 34 was the way to go. The XD has a serious rust issue. Anyway, thanks for your help.

Flex et al, Does anyone know of any reliability issues regarding the 34 versus 17. In other words, is the 17 more reliable than the 34? I've heard this several times but have never personally experienced any issues.

Forward pressure.., its a good thing.

Forward pressure or lack thereof is usually at the root of grip issues as described. When the hands come apart or work their way apart after a few rounds, is usually the result of the shooter not "pushing" into the target. Forward pressure from both hands, starting at the toes and working up, will take care of the issue. As Flex noted, over-gripping with the support hand will actually cause more problems. Think about what happens when you squeeze a bar of soap tightly with your hand, it jumps right out of there.

Why not e-mail Dave and ask him? That would be simple enough and get around the issues that cloud..., like agendas and opinion. I've talked to DRM while Dave was there and after, Dave also posts on DRM's forum, so you might ask there. I do know Dave was NOT at DRM's place to teach a class. I do know that DRM said that Dave has incredible hand-to-eye coordination, hardcore work ethic and a strong desire to always improve. Other than that, I can't comment...., 'cause I don't know and I'm not afraid to admit it.

Ron, Huh? "I don't care you are" I lost my yoda translator. btw, you can't see me

You're kiddin', right? (no smilies so I'm not sure). Its a simple staged photo for the purpose of exhibiting the v-tac sling, but it does show a slice of his shooting platform, that relates to the topic. With that in mind, I don't think there is a need for glasses, or an athletic forward lean, unless he actually is going to touch off a round in the photo area. But he does demo those attributes in the 1100 video. Buttstock being to far out? Do you mean the adjustable version? Lots of military guy's shoot it that way. Some top military trainers insist on using the A2 as their training tool so there is no excuse regarding the non-stock rifle issue. Sort of a, nothing special here, if I can shoot it with an A2 so can everybody else, type thing. Don't know if that is Kyle's reasoning or not.

Usually the discussion of elbows up versus down stems from the competition versus combative debate. This guy seems to be pretty knowledgable concerning both competition and combative issues. Check out his elbows. http://vikingtactics.com/ForSale/FiringtoTransition1.JPG

Glucosamine Chondroitin and ibuprofren, forget milligrams, think tonnage. Pre-training: Some G/C, maybe some ibuprofren or other NSAID, good warmup, if things are really bad..., use a heating pad with moist/damp towel to assist warmup by actually "heating up" the joint before moving around to much. I've tried a lot of topical stuff but the most common one I see around is the Flex-all 454, just make sure the area is scratch/abrasion free or you'll be doing a jig while your friends laugh and point at you...., very rude behaviour I might add, unless they are pointing and laughing at someone else. During training - stay warm, long johns with a sweat shirt over top and maybe a neoprene wrap to assist keeping the warmth in, just make sure its not too tight. Drink enough water and maybe pop a few of those ibuprofren's/NSAIDs when you get a chance. After training - ICE! ASAP. If I'm really hurting I fill my kitchen sinks, (double basin, so both sides) with cold water and some of those freezer packs you get for your cooler, its cheaper that way as opposed to buying bags of ice, suck it up and stick your elbows/arms completely under the water for as long as you can take it. For the normal soreness I keep bags of frozen peas in the freezer, soon as I get home, I get the cold working for me, applied directly to the affected area and curse those that have no injuries...., you know, the Couch Potatoes. More NSAIDs, rest, G/C and dream about moving to someplace warm and dry year-round.

Dowter, I'm with you. I read a cool quote once that is similar, a smart man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Flex, I'm not to sure if we can really induce the stress of an actual match in a practice. Maybe we can if we force ourselves to only work on the things that we can't do well. A practice where we shoot a qualifier, left handed only might do it, as we would have a sense/feeling of how this would normally be going along if we were shooting it freestyle. This would create the possibility of failure which would create stress by taking us out of our comfort zone. Another approach would be to shoot a match with one hand, or left handed only. Anything that would take us away from a "sure thing", removing the possibility of performing at our normal/expected levels would definitely kick us in the butt and take us away from the familiar. A little trick I picked up from one of the best wrestlers I have ever met was so simple yet very difficult to apply. He told me that he would choose before a practice, today I will not use my right hand. Then he would go through the entire practice like that. This did several things, 1) actually gave everyone else a chance, 2) forced him to work with and overcome a greater handicap than he might ever face in a match, 3) removed his fear of losing, ie; trying to workout with only one hand/leg/only allowed one offensive move regardless of opening presented, which resulted in him continually being place in a position of disadvantage and having to fight out from bottom so the possibility of winning was a non-issue, 4) Forced him to develop a complete "game", rather than continue to repeat those things that he could do with his eyes closed and still score. hmmm....,

True enough..., but, how else can we find out, for ourselves, what works and what does not? I was trained to shoot the Weaver originally by guy's that "told" me over and over, this is the only way to make effective hits while shooting a "service weapon". Since that time I have taken a lot of classes and had the opportunity to train with a lot of really great people. Even so, I still test everything I learn for myself. Somethings work across the board and could be called truisms, other things have to be tested. For pistol I like the Bill Drill because if any grip issues will arise this drill will definitely bring them out. If I am testing strictly my grip I will fire 6 rounds fast as I can recover the sight in the A zone, with no presentation involved, pistol is already pointed in, with sights aligned, just waiting for the beep. That way training issues of obtaining a decent grip from the holster won't affect the outcome. In this way I hope to eliminate the issues you mentioned, such as comfort with a certain approach. I think the problem arises when we attempt to validate a certain "technique" rather than search optimal performance. For me, sometimes I have so much ego wrapped up in a certain thing that I "cheat" performance, otherwise the results would bruise my ego too much. IMO, that would explain the better recoil group you mentioned. Good luck.

Take some ammo, hit the range and shoot a boat load of Bill Drills. I will set up a number of targets based on the number of things I am experiementing with. In this case I would use 2 targets. One target for "thumbs off" and one target for the "Gargantua Grip". Than you'll know the answer for yourself and it won't matter what anybody says....., and with hands that big no one in their right mind will say much.

Is this open to unclassified shooters?

but I thought I would share for those that don't know. While practicing with my 870 I was having a hard time working the slide as the round count got up there. After a few slugs things would start to move around. Enter 3M non-slip stair tread tape. I bought a roll of the 2 inch wide stuff. Put a strip on the forearm where my hand grips. Big difference. I run a strip on my MP-5 and M-4 on the butt to help it stick to me even in less than optimal conditions...., so I figured why not on the 870? This works really well also. So to sum it up, strip on forearm and strip on butt helps things stick. I noticed an improvement in shot to shot recovery with slugs and '00' right away. Hope this helps.

thanks for the input guy's. have a good one.

Eric, Makes perfect sense. TIS, He completely removed it, popped a rod and away we go. His arguement is, when your finger hits an obstruction before making contact with the actual trigger it pushes the gun left, (if your a righty), as you disengage the safety. He said the same thing about making sure my finger is well away from the frame if I'm going to try slapping. Rolling through seems to be the way to go, although slapping would be nice. It sure is fast on an AR and 1911 type triggers.

Flex, On another thread Pat mentioned that he slaps everything, I've been trying with my 21 and 22. I like the speed I'm getting but....., can you say LEFT? Another shooter suggested that you can't slap a Glock because of the trigger safety. He told me he "disabled" his because he is a long time slapper and didn't want to change. I can't do that, the 21 is a duty gun, I'm pushing the envelope as it is by changing sights and some other easily articulated mods. Should I just chalk it up to "impossible with a Glock" or train this some more? I like the side benefit of trigger time on any weapon system will carry-over to the others, ie; AR, shotgun, MP-5 as I am not training for a reset that is exclusive to one gun.

Leaders should lead. I'm sick of taking direction from managers that have no clue what it means to lead. Lead from the point, using experience as a guide. Not from the office, from a book. Until somebody gets hurt, than state that you'll have to look it up, look what up? Lead! Or sit down and shut up and let the vets with 20 years on the job make the call.

I hate overtraining! I hate the affects of overtraining! I've been training hard for some things that are coming up, like lots of athletes, you have to accept that you will train right at the edge. Usually no big deal, train up to the edge, taper for a week or two walk in ready to rock. BTDT, no big deal. Due to craziness at work and home I went about two weeks with about 2-3 hours sleep a night, sometimes less. By day 3 of this I was feeling like crap. On Thursday I ate a shot on the way in with one of my sparring partners, black eye, no big deal, I have them all the time, at least once a week, as soon as I get home I ice it while standing in the shower and its gone by the next morning. This time it got crazy. Swelling wouldn't go away, discoloration outside and inside eye got worse and stayed for days. Never had that happen. Sunday, get in bed at 0400, back up and at the gym by 0700 for some conditioning work and sparring. Alarm goes off and I can't move. No voice, everything hurts, feels like joints are on fire, I think this is crazy, I'm just tired but if I get going I'll get that mojo working and I'll be okay. Get to the bathroom and look in mirror, big mistake, I look worse than ever. Eye looks like roadkill, right side of face is swollen from shot I took in the mouth 3 days ago and it still won't go away. Usually, dings, bumps and bruises last less than a day at this point. This is starting to freak me out. Try to go train but head is spinning. Everytime I try to initiate my timing is all off, I get hit, taken down, choked out, tapped out and almost knocked out by stupid stuff that should never catch me. By now, I have no voice and I'm not sweating although I'm super hot. My brother calls a halt to training and tells me to go home, its over, I'm sick and this ain't helping. Monday I go to see the Doc, he looks around and says congratulations, you have bronchittis (sp)!!!! Does some more blood work and says, btw, you've crushed your immune system, you've really done it this time. Unreal, I know better than this and I saw it coming too. Dumb, Dumb and did I mention, Dumb. Stuck in the house since Monday so far, can't train, can't dry practice, nothing but vegging for me. This blows!

Bridgebuilder because every where I see him post he's building bridges. Nobody has anything bad to say about him. Of course, since we are starting a roast, with the title of bridgebuilder would also come the joke reference..., you know the one, Build a thousand bridges..., Linkmeister is definitely spot on. You gotta wonder where he finds those links. Does he ever sleep?

It should also be noted that Bill shot many times with a stock Glock 21 against the latest greatest race blasters. Someone once said he was the first to do this but who knows. I know I have a lot of respect for him for giving it a run. 6 of our guy's have been through his school and speak highly of Bill and his facilities. I was scheduled to go in the next batch but alas, budgetary cuts have eliminated any out of state schools. I mentioned some of the things he teaches in the thread on head position. I got my info from our guy's and some video they brought back. On one of the videos Bill is demonstrating some blazing times out of a level III retention holster, while moving through a "alley" type setup. Timers don't lie, the man is fast and accurate. His forte is reactionary shooting, sort of like shooting clay pigeons,ie; the target appears and then is gone, you either get it or you don't. Good stuff. He would appear and by all reports is, a fantastic instructor with loads of positive energy. Bill is a great person and deserves much respect.

Deaf, I heard it attributed to Bear Bryant. ROLL RIDE!!!

Ron, Right on! Your motivation is pure as well, to satisfy your performance objectives. Good luck!