Is 15 Rounds Enough For Limited

[mcb]

So I have been shooting Limited-10 with my XD-40 Tactical. It’s a lot of fun and I actually like the extra reloads using the 10 round magazines. Nothing like two or three (even four when I screw up) reloads on a long stage. I have two classifiers under my belt, at this point I should classify as a C class shooter if my next two classifiers are of similar performance to the first two.

So far I have put a new solid stainless guide rod and lighter spring (16# compared to factor 18#) and a homemade magazine well with home made magazine bumpers on my XD-40.

Now more to my actual topic. I was kicking around also trying Limited and it appears the most people have magazines that hold 17 or 18 rounds and a few have magazines that hold 19 rounds. How much of a disadvantage would a 15 round magazine be? From my limited experience so far it seems it probably would not be to much of a disadvantage for short or medium stages but would be on long stages.

On a similar vain to my magazine well I have a working prototype of a +3 base pad (total 15 rounds) for an XD magazine (normally 12 round in 40S&W). If I change the spring and follow I might be able to make it a +4 (16 total) within the 140mm limited length but there does not seem to be any way to get a +5 (17 total). The only think I can think is that the STI and SV 40&W magazine tubes must be wider side to side then the magazine tube the XD uses. Could someone measure the inside dimensions of one of their 17 or 18 round magazines? A XD-40 magazine is 0.730 inches wide on the inside; I suspect the big sticks are a bit wider.

So would you shoot limited if you could only get 15 round magazines for your gun or should I just skip it until I can get a real gun and keep blasting away at limited-10?

Thanks

mcb

[ChuckS]

My .40 limited gun has a para frame and I get 20 in a para mag with a dawson basepad and 21 with grams. I think the STI tubes get one less round due to the taper.

[EricW]

Playing 5 rounds short of the rest of the field is going to be one tough row to hoe.

[Chuck D]

I use an SV framed gun in 45. I can only get 15+1 in the gun at any one time.

I do o.k. but I'm always 1.5 to 2.0 sec. behind the guys with 19 or 20 in a mag.

You can do it BUT it's more work than I thought it would be.

My set-up is a MUCH better fit in L10.

[folsoml]

Like you said, on the longer courses you will be at a slight disadvantage, but probably only to the tune on one extra reload. On the shorter courses, it will be a wash because you both will have to reload, but only once. You will just have to do your one reload earlier (unless it is a really short course and they can do it in one mag).

Nice homemade magwell, by the way!

[GuildSF4]

15 rounds is a slight disadvantage if it is a higher round cound stage with short

movement between shooting areas. If there is longer movement between shooting areas and you practiced your reloads a lot it can be a wash.

[Paul B]

I'm using a Para .40 and can start with 23 in the gun. Many stages tend to be set up in groups of 8 or 9 shots. The 23 rounds allow me to shoot at least 2 groupings of targets with insurance before a reload. 15 rounds would mean a reload between groups of as little as 8 shots. With a long enough run it's not a problem, but you could essentially do the same thing with L10.

Additionally, there are a lot of courses where you would only have to shoot 8 or 9 from one position, but you can sometimes shoot as many as 18 without moving much if you have the capacity.

If you want to use the XD see if you can modify a mag or 2 to 140mm and add different spring lengths to get some more capacity. The Glock guys do it.

[Mistral404]

I believe the rule book states that there should not be a requirement of more than nine rounds per station/box/position.

Given that requirement and your mag capacity you have to plan your actions a tad bit more carefully than others. I get 19 plus on in the chamber, so when the Para guys design a course it is usually in the 20-21 round count so I generally do a reload.

On 22 or better, then everyone in Limited does a reload.

But we have a demented L10 shooter who designs courses that always puts Limited shooter in an extra reload mode.

Given all that: shoot what you got!!! Remember, the challenges you face and overcome (learn from) will eventually pay off in the long run. If you get really serious about Limited and want to achieve A/M/GM level you have to get a Limited gun. But for now invest you money, time, and energy with what you have got.

I started L10 and Limited with a BHP. Talk about a equipment disadvantage. No drop free mags, 13 or 17 round mags, no mag well, 4inch barrel, ---ugh.

[mcb]

Thanks guys,

Unless I figure out how to get at least 16 or 17 in that magazine I will probably just stay with Limited-10 at least with the XD.

Can anyone give the the inside dimension of a STI, or another 17+ 40 cal magazine? It must be quite a bit wider then the XD magazine body to get that many round in a magazine only 140mm long.

Thanks for all the comments. I'm probably going to remake the magazine well out of black delrin. As you can see the front inside took a lot of custom fitting to get it to work right. I have changed the design and I think the new design will attach on with a lot less custom fitting.

Thanks

mcb

[sasquatch981]

MCB,

That looks great. I am actually thinking of getting a XD myslef, and have often wondered about the mags. I mean how can a Beretta, Walther, or Sig hold only (12) rounds of .40, while a G22 (same size as all the bove from appearances) hold (15). If youi do make some mag pads that increase capacity to (14), or (15), let me know, I might like to buy some from you.

Here are the Inner Diameters of:

Walther P-99: .7355

STI: (Aprroxinately) .826 My calipers won't reach the both inner ribs, but it reaches one, and I subtracted that length from the total figure.

Hope this helps.

Matt

[ampleworks]

mcb,

Something to make sure of is you don't pass the 140mm restriction. Using a XD mag and pierce +2s make it right at 138mm and at .40 cases, that only gives +1 instead of +2.

[Carlos]

I am getting 19 rounds in a 140 mm mag for the .40 caliber "Standard IPSC" model handgun (made by CZ). I can manage 20 w. a modified SV follower - ad that is with the older mag bodies. Size of the Standard IPSC mag is similar to the XD though I will have to get home tonight to measure & confirm. What modifications have you made to the follower? Since ..40 S&W cal 140MM Glock mags are able to hold 20 rounds, I would be very surprised if 140mm XD mags were limited to only 15.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

PS do a search on my posts for a photo of my Standard IPSC with Taylor Freelance basepads.

[shred]

I say go for it. You might not win the Nationals like that, but who cares? Shoot some limited, see if you like it better than L-10 for a while. We have a guy that shoots a Para .45 with ~16 rounds and does great.

This is supposed to be fun.

[mcb]

mcb,

Something to make sure of is you don't pass the 140mm restriction. Using a XD mag and pierce +2s make it right at 138mm and at .40 cases, that only gives +1 instead of +2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That 140mm is exactly my problem. I have a prototype that will allow and XD magazine to hold 15 rounds (+3) capacity and still just make it into the 140mm length at measure in the USPSA rule book. I might get a 4th round in there if I used a differnet spring and follower but ther is no way I am going to get more than 16 round in a XD magazine and still be under 140 mm. The magazine are just too narrow. Looks like the XD is going to have to be a Limited-10 gun.

mcb

[eric nielsen]

What Shred said. Shoot what you have now, learn, and have fun.

My advice when ppl get bit by the IPSC bug, is make your 2nd gun purchase an Open gun. For a lot of guys gettting a "better" Limited gun just helps them shoot Cs and Ds a little faster. A red dot can illustrate your problems and help you clean up your hold, trigger control, transitions, everything.

[DogmaDog]

I've shot at clubs where 8 shot arrays were really common, and having a gun with at least 17 rounds in it allowed you the most flexibility about where you reloaded. If your clubs don't always have 8 shot arrays, and sometimes have fewer, then a 15 round gun might not be a handicap.

You will discover that Limited is quite a bit different from L-10--I think the lower mag capacity in L-10 places more constraints on how you shoot a course. For example, instead of shooting several near and far targets all from the same spot, an L-10 shooter might shoot the near targets, then reload while moving to take the far targets from up close. The limited shooter could do either, without a reload.

DD

[Bear23]

Having 16+ in the gun the way to go for Limited. A few guys here will shoot their L-10 guns in Limited. They do OK, but i wouldn't recommend it for a major match. There will just be some stages and arrays that will suit the 16+ crowd better than only having 14 rounds available.

A stage where 2 arrays of 8 shots comes to mind. 16+ can manage without a reload and still make up a shot or 2 if needed, you are already down 2+...

RM

[GuildSF4]

I shot limited for a long time with a P14-45. Never bothered me. Definitly have to be more careful about dropping shots and where to reload but it can be done. (The only match I ever won with a limited gun was with the P14-45)

[Harmon]

My gun holds 20+1

the max number of rounds fired in any one location is supposed to be 8, that means with 15 rounds your still gonna be one short of shooting two arrays(like everyone else in limited would do)

I think people who tell you that you have to have this particular gun with X number of rounds to shoot this division are doing the sport more harm than good.

BTW i know several folks who are just getting started with oddball guns, ( para P14, EAA witness, ect)

you have to play your own game and if that means reloading one more time, or doing it here instead of over there, do it. and have fun.

I would also use that gun to shoot limited 10 with...Though i have seen a guy burn some ass with a singlestack in limited!

[Flexmoney]

Unless I was getting 18-20+ rounds, I would shoot in Limited-10...which is a perfect place for a 40 caliber XD shooting Major power factor.

[alma]

18 seem to be the minimum to be rally competitive. A lot of times you see multiple arrays of 3 targets and with 18 rounds you can hit 3 arrays without a reload. 18 could also cover you for 9 shots from one position and 9 shots from another position.

With 15 rounds you will have to squeeze an extra reload in for both of the above scenarios. Shooting with 15 will give you more flexibility over L10 and it will get you higher up in the combined division results but you will need more rounds to be ultra competitive in limited division.

[mcb]

Thanks guys,

I have basically come to a similar conclusion to the one Flexmoney, Alma and others have already. I think the XD-40 and I will stay with Limited-10. After further study it seems the XD was really designed as a 9mm gun. The magazine is really the correct width for maximizing 9mm capacity not 40S&W. With the +3 extension prototype I made for my XD-40 magazine I can stuff 21 and with a little effort 22 9mm rounds in that same magazine (without the extension it would be about 16 rounds). Given the narrow width of the XD magazine they simply don't allow 40S&W rounds to close-pack together as say an STI 40 cal magazine would. Oh-well I Like Limited-10 a lot anyways and I only need two more classifiers to get a classification in Limited-10.

On a side not I did remake my magwell out of black Delrin. It looks pretty good IMHO. I have also made a few extended base pads. They don't add capacity but the do get the bottom of the magazine a bit below the magwell for good positive seating of the mag.

Notice the extended basepad on left and factory base pad with rubber bumper on right.

Thanks again for looking and for all the good input.

mcb

[GuildSF4]

Looks good. Maybe I'll get a tactical model later...

[Larry White]

Looks like a bang up L10 gun to me, and if you are haveing fun with it its a really good L10 gun.----Larry

[ParaJoe]

That's some mighty fine craftsmanship on that sutff there. Nice looking pieces.