Power Factor

[Duane Thomas]

I get asked that fairly often...even by my buddies.

I've had the same experience, though not fairly often. Once, exactly. After watching me shoot one stage, this guy sidled up to me afterwards and said, "Look....are you sure your loads are making Major? What's your power factor?" I shrugged and said, "I dunno. Whatever Black Hills puts into their factory .45 hardball." "Oh! You're shooting factory hardball!" "Yeaaaaah," I replied. "Well, you're sure not getting much muzzle flip!" "Well," I said, "that is the idea, right?"

[Duane Thomas]

I don't think there's any doubt that some chrono different rounds than the ones they shot the match with. Maybe more random pulling of rounds out of a magazine during the match and chronoing those rounds would help. This again relates back to having enough people to help accomplish this task.

At every match I've ever been to with a chrono stage, the way they gathered rounds was to go up to the shooter when they were loaded for a stage and have them pop rounds of a particular mag - chosen by the RO, not the shooter - that's already loaded up and on their body. I know that's the way they do it at the Nats.

[Nik Habicht]

At every match I've ever been to with a chrono stage, the way they gathered rounds was to go up to the shooter when they were loaded for a stage and have them pop rounds of a particular mag - chosen by the RO, not the shooter - that's already loaded up and on their body. I know that's the way they do it at the Nats.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's opposite my nats experience --- where they hand you a baggie and tell you to pop eight rounds in it......

[Duane Thomas]

You're right. My bad. Staring back into dim memory, that's what they do. Does kind of open you up to the guys with that one mag of "special" ammo, doesn't it?

[Clay1]

If you have to win that bad that you will cheat to do so - how can you value that win? Low self-esteem and the need to make yourself superior by any means is what I am thinking. I guess that undergrad Bachelor's in Psych is starting to show it's nasty head this earlier in the morning.

[Skywalker]

If you have to win that bad that you will cheat to do so - how can you value that win?  Low self-esteem and the need to make yourself superior by any means is what I am thinking.  I guess that undergrad Bachelor's in Psych is starting to show it's nasty head this earlier in the morning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Clay,

those who need that bad to win are usually not the least interested in winning per-se, but only in achieving something to brag about with others; so the winning in itself is not important, but the outcome is, and the way they achieve it doesn't matter diddly squat to them...

[HQBrass]

Wow, I thought that I was the only one that had these thoughts. I guess the thought crosses every competitors mind at some point. If Flex is reading this we may see a chrono stage at one of Anderson’s matches.

[dajarrel]

Maybe the founding fathers of IPSC should have added an additional letter to DVC. You know.... one that stands for integrity.

I hope that what I see here is just the bringing together of a bunch of observations of poor sportsmanship. I hope it isn't as rampant as one could gather from this thread.

Alot of people joke about making major at the matches but I have only observed one or two instances of people skirting the rules in the last few years.

I hope it stays that way.

just my humble opinion

FWIW

dj

[tightloop]

If you have a chrono as part of a stage and shoot thru a port....some idiot will shoot your screens....I would lay money on it....

[zhunter]

If you have a chrono as part of a stage and shoot thru a port....some idiot will shoot your screens....I would lay money on it....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was my thought too!!!

[shred]

Somebody needs to produce steel chrono-holes for such use... hello MGM?

[HQBrass]

I don't think that all the shooters that claim Major but make Minor are doing it as "Gamers". I think it is just that they have poor load development. Very few of the shooters I know actually have a chrono. Most shooters go by "feel". Yeah that feels about right, I'll go with it and it feels like it makes Major.

[DogmaDog]

I've only seen one guy I was sure wasn't making major...a revolver shooter emtied a couple loads full on a half dozen poppers and only 2 of them went down. When tested with 9mm, they all fell from one shot.

I used to make reduced power powder-puff loads to shoot plate rack matches with. My good times were 3.3 seconds for 5 plates at 25', and my outstanding times were about 3 seconds.

Then I tried it one time with my major ammo, because I ran out of the wimp stuff. My good times were 3.3 seconds, and my best times were about 3 seconds. I may have shot slightly fewer "bad" runs (4 seconds) with the major ammo, but it would be hard to say for sure.

It seems to me that the stronger impulse from the gun also prompts a stronger impulse from my body to return the sights to the target...no speed is lost.

So before you go sneaking chronys into stages to catch cheaters, just bring a chrony and set it up to allow shooters to check themselves...maybe they don't know they're going minor?

DD

[Nik Habicht]

You're right. My bad. Staring back into dim memory, that's what they do. Does kind of open you up to the guys with that one mag of "special" ammo, doesn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have seen ROs use the "I want eight rounds --- four from this mag, and four from this one" approach before --- just not at the 03 FGN or 04 Nats.....

[Nik Habicht]

If you have a chrono as part of a stage and shoot thru a port....some idiot will shoot your screens....I would lay money on it....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At last month's Topton match, Match Director Dave Miller designed a 20 something round stage that was shot sitting at a table. At the conclusion of each (SS Category) competitor's run, the time was recorded. The shooter then stepped two steps to the right and fired a round over a chrono. (Dave was running a manliest power factor contest for fun for anyone who showed up shooting a SS.)

Chrono as part of a stage can be done --- with difficulties. Chrono next to a stage can be done more easily.....

[JFlowers]

DogmaDog,

On occasion, usually the month prior to a major match, someone will bring a chrony to one of the monthly matches I attend and set it up in the bay with the classifier. Not a mandantory thing mind you, but it sure is nice for all us poor shooters that do not have a chrony or a place to set one up at.

James

[Tman33_99]

Somebody needs to produce steel chrono-holes for such use...  hello MGM?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shred,

I think that would only work if you put the chrono 10 yards down range. Is that what you were thinking?

[davidwiz]

I was at a "big match" a couple of years ago, back in the days of the 175pf, and a lot of people had problems with the chrono - people who were making Major at home by a hefty margin (190pf) were just squeaking by or Minor'ing. The person running the chrono didn't test it before the match, but just set the chrono up and ran it.

They refused to acknowledge the possibility that the chrono wasn't set up correctly. It's not cool to travel hundreds of miles and pay hundreds of dollars to shoot a match, only to be Minor'ed b/c the chrono wasn't setup correctly (I made Major, but just barely, like a 175.5pf). There was another "chrono related" problem at that match too, that made me swear off attending another match run by that MD.

[Ted Murphy]

What were they not following the calibration and set up procedure?

I always like it when they use multiple chronos at the same time.

Ted

[XRe]

davidwiz, I'm not trying to contradict your story at all

When I minor'ed at the '98 A6, a bunch of people came up to me and told me that an inordinate number of people were going minor - something like 25% was what was told to me. It was the first day of the match, and chrono results hadn't been posted up, yet. I pestered the RM about it, and was basically a PITA, but he agreed to look into it. IIRC, as it turned out, only 3 or so people actually went minor.

I'm not saying anyone was malicious - and I do believe that the folks who came and talked to me were just trying to help out. But, I think a buzz tends to get built about the chrono, and it's results...

[Newguy]

Over the past few months I've been picking up live rounds at IPSC matches after the shooters have left and abandoned what's on the ground. (Part of the range cleanup.) I probably have about 50-100 rounds of .40, .45, etc.

Since I don't know whose rounds they were I can't point a finger -- not that I'd want to. Anyway, when I get some time I plan to chrono them to see what percentage are major. Although not scientific, I'm curious. Inquiring minds want to know.

[Clay1]

Be careful about shooting someone else's handloads in your gun. They could be hot in your gun so hot that things come ungluded. I wouldn't recomend it at all.

[MarkS_A18138]

Over the past few months I've been picking up live rounds at IPSC matches after the shooters have left and abandoned what's on the ground. (Part of the range cleanup.) I probably have about 50-100 rounds of .40, .45, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have done the same thing!!! But since I RO most of our matches I just pick up there mag and hand it back to them, not before taking a couple of rounds. I am sorry but 2 things piss me off more than anything cheating with ammo and oversize mags. I have found aleast 3 of or guys have been shooting there steel loads!!!!! Oh well it seems I am being petty!!!! Sorry!!!

[GeorgeInNePa]

Over the past few months I've been picking up live rounds at IPSC matches after the shooters have left and abandoned what's on the ground. (Part of the range cleanup.) I probably have about 50-100 rounds of .40, .45, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have done the same thing!!! But since I RO most of our matches I just pick up there mag and hand it back to them, not before taking a couple of rounds. I am sorry but 2 things piss me off more than anything cheating with ammo and oversize mags. I have found aleast 3 of or guys have been shooting there steel loads!!!!! Oh well it seems I am being petty!!!! Sorry!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, and what their ammo is doing out of your gun means nothing. If it's supposed to be going 1300 and you are getting 1000, I'll accept that. BUT if you're getting within 100fps or so of what you think it should be, then I'd discount it.

'93 or '94, I was almost minored at a match in NY. They would shoot your ammo through one of their guns, unless you minored out, then they would try to find you. Well mine came up a healthy minor. Luckily I was still there to shoot my own gun with the remainder of the chrono sample. Yep, healthy major loads.

Of course there was the time at the Nationals or the Area 8's(can't remember which) where I made major with a 165.1PF, verrrrry close. The chrono man said, "Put a bit more powder in that next time".

[scooterj]

"Sure, and what their ammo is doing out of your gun means nothing. If it's supposed to be going 1300 and you are getting 1000, I'll accept that. BUT if you're getting within 100fps or so of what you think it should be, then I'd discount it."

Chrono man shot my STI40 at a section match a couple years ago and turned around to me and said, "boy was that soft! what load are you using?"

When I told him that it was the same bullet and powder that he used, he couldn't believe it. I was using .4gr less powder than he and getting about 30 to 40 fps more than he was. Met him at a local match a few weeks later and he asked if he could try a few of my rounds through his gun. 169 pf out of my gun and 162 from his. Both guns have Shuman barrels. The difference between my gun and his with my load was about 80 fps.

Be careful if you need to switch to a back up gun, both will need to make major with the same ammo.