Xl650 How To Seat Primers Deeper?

[Kevin Kline]

Yeah, that's a helluva a problem Eric. If you find a solution, let me know. I've got a 650 and havent had that problem yet.

How dirty are the primer pockets? You might have to resize and decap them first in a Lee single stage (Lee resizing die) and then clean the brass in the tumbler without the old primer in. Maybe that will help with cleaning the primer pocket a little better. How many times has the brass been used?

[10mmdave]

Yeah, that's a helluva a problem Eric. If you find a solution, let me know. I've got a 650 and havent had that problem yet.

How dirty are the primer pockets? You might have to resize and decap them first in a Lee single stage (Lee resizing die) and then clean the brass in the tumbler without the old primer in. Maybe that will help with cleaning the primer pocket a little better. How many times has the brass been used?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From what I posted earlier, if the primer anvil will go up past the theoretical base

of your case then making anything longer is not going to help. I'd actually be

worried about messing up the press.

The mechanical advantage of the 650 allows one to push the de-capping rod thru a

38 super case stuck in a 40 case (been there, done that) or rip off a case rim from

a stuck case (heard about this, never seen it).

If it can't seat a lowly primer below flush then I have to suggest you look for other

causes.

Is your loading bench setup not allowing you to "push" with full force on the

priming stroke ?? (didn't you just move to NV ??)

Long winded post but I think the group would miss you if you do something really

BAD to yourself while trying to find a solution to this problem.

Or you could just join a gym and take the Gorilla's advice

[chp5]

Erik,

Are you absolutely sure that the primer seating assembly is screwed all the way up into the press? It should be flush with the top of the platform when you're looking at it from the top with the primer tube and disk removed.

Also - double check to make sure you have the correct shell plate. It's possible to change calibers and forget to change the shell plate.

BTW - the primer system is the weak link in the 650 design IMO. The 550 primer system is more simple and reliable.

I've also had powder get into the primer seating assembly (when using very fine SP2 powder) and gunk up the stem so it wouldn't completely retract into the assembly. That will completly lock up your primer disk

[ErikW]

I'm sure the new primer stem is screwed in all the way, and the old one was, too.

My bench is ultra-secure and the press is on a strong mount. I had the same problem with Win .40 brass with my old bench at my previous residence.

I can seat the primers, but it takes a hell of a lot of extra force and adds time to the loading process.

One interesting thing about re-seating the high primers is they often end up flattened. Like the pocket isn't deep enough or is dirty and the extra force just flattens the cup rather than pushing the primer in further.

What I need is a source for once-fired brass from whom I can choose the headstamp (or specify no Winchester). Too bad I've got about 5,000 of these Win once-fired cases.

[ErikW]

I just loaded 200 rounds of the previously sized/de-capped/tumbled Winchester .40 nickle cases. Most had slightly high primers that my gun will probably light off. About 30 were too high for comfort. About 20 were flush or below flush.

Most of the high primers are uneven. That is, they have a high side and a low side.

I did learn the seating stem length is not an issue. If I put a decapped case in station #2, the stem protrudes well into the primer pocket.

[rishii]

just a thought,

did you check if the L shaped plate that is attached to the frame is tight, the primer stem rests on that as you seat the primers.

also check for cracks in the crank, thats the part thats on the bottom of the ram and connects it to the handle.

[Flexmoney]

I did learn the seating stem length is not an issue. If I put a decapped case in station #2, the stem protrudes well into the primer pocket.

I was just getting ready to ask if yuo could tell if the stem was making it up above the top of the shell plate. (Thinking that the shell plate might have been the wrong one, or that it was milled wrong.)

If you are getting them in there crooked, then it would seem that your shell plate is loose enough to teeter?

[davidwiz]

I just ran into this problem reloading .40 on my 650. About every 20 or so now has a high primer. Never had a problem with it before and nothing has been changed/adjusted.

[TeamGE]

There is no adjustment of the primer seating depth on a 650, other then how hard you push the handle. If the pocket is too shallow or full of crud, you have to smash the primer a little to seat it deeper. Primer depth is all in your feel of machine and where the handle stops during the loading process. If something feels out of spec, you must stop, pull the case out of the primer seating station, check for high primer, sideways primer or fail to decap properly problems.

As stated by 300lb'er, push harder and consistantly.

[Flexmoney]

A ratio that works out to some form of one in five might mean that one station of the shell plate is bad.

[Guy Neill]

I don't see that you mention if you have tried a different brand of cases to see if they do the same. If a different brand works, it suggests the Winchester cases you have have tight or shallow primer pockets. Another problem can be the radius at the bottom of the primer pocket. If too large it will not let the primers seat completely. Uniforming will take care of a large radius in the bottom.

You might try using a uniforming tool on some of the cases anyway, to see if much or any material is removed, and how the seating operation progresses afterwards.

And there could be a tolerance stack-up. For small pistol primers, the primer should range from 0.1745" to 0.1765" in diameter, and 0.115" to 0.125" in height. The primer pocket can range from 0.1730" to 0.1745" in diameter and 0.117" to 0.123" in depth. As you can see, a maximum height primer in a minimum depth pocket will have the primer above flush. In these instances, the fix is uniforming the pockets or changing the components.

Guy

[calhunter]

I don't see that you mention if you have tried a different brand of cases to see if they do the same.  If a different brand works, it suggests the Winchester cases you have have tight or shallow primer pockets.  Another problem can be the radius at the bottom of the primer pocket.  If too large it will not let the primers seat completely.  Uniforming will take care of a large radius in the bottom.

You might try using a uniforming tool on some of the cases anyway, to see if much or any material is removed, and how the seating operation progresses afterwards.

And there could be a tolerance stack-up.  For small pistol primers, the primer should range from 0.1745" to 0.1765" in diameter, and 0.115" to 0.125" in height.  The primer pocket can range from 0.1730" to 0.1745" in diameter and 0.117" to 0.123" in depth.  As you can see, a maximum height primer in a minimum depth pocket will have the primer above flush.  In these instances, the fix is uniforming the pockets or changing the components.

Guy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BINGO - The part #'s are in post #3 been there done this!

[10mmdave]

In these instances, the fix is uniforming the pockets or changing the components.

Guy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BINGO - The part #'s are in post #3 been there done this!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eric, maybe you'll have to "uniform" the pockets of the Winchester brass once and

be done with it.

Not sure what kind of a setup this requires but maybe it would be repetative so

with each batch of brass you just stick the primer end on the cutter before

loading ??

Sounds like a pain in the butt but if you have 5K of them and if they last you awhile

might be worth it.

Checking that little "L" bracket for the cause of tipped primers was a good one,

have to look at my 650 when I get home. (or was that my SDB that did that )

[Bear23]

Thinking like a scientist here,,,,

Maybe you got a bad batch of primers.... Maybe they are out of spec????

Try federal primers, softer than Winchester and easier to 'push' in.

[dillon]

Try this:

Loosen the set screw on the left side of the 650 that locks the shellplate bolt in place. Tighten the shellplate bolt down until it stops. Try to seat a primer. If the primer seats under this condition, then probably the shellplate bolt was too loose. It should be backed up about 1/8 turn. Your description that primers are higher on one side implies this possibility.

If you can push forward on the handle (without a primer on the seat punch) and cause the primer seat punch to stick into the primer pocket, then it is more likely a primer issue, and not a mechanical problem.

[ErikW]

I bought some CCI 500 (small pistol) primers to try with the Win once-fired brass. Maybe a slight improvement, but still high primers.

[dillon]

Based on current measuring, Remington primers are the most concentric currently.

Federal primers are the softest and easiest to seat. CCI historically require more effort to seat. Did you try tightening the shellplate bolt down completely, then seating a primer?

[Clay1]

Erik, I also want to know if you tried loosening up the set screw first and then tightening down the shell plate.

[ErikW]

Today I tried Federal small rifle (205) and pistol (100) primers, and a brand-new "W" shellplate. (I have been using a well-used #5 shellplate.) I also loosened and re-tightened the "anvil" the seating stem bottoms against, re-positioning it as high as possible.

The 205s were high like everything else. The 100s felt very nice seating but were a touch high and required a second effort to flatten them out a bit and get them lower. Many had the noticeable slant to them that I had blamed on the old seating stem. (I'm using a new stem.)

I had previously tightened the #5 shellplate as tight as I can get it and still cycle the press, and I did the same with the W shellplate.

I should mention that besides all the non-Win. .40 brass I load with the #5 plate, I also load .38 Super (RP and AP), 9x21 (Starline), and 9x19 (mixed) without high primers with the same shell plate.

One thing I noticed when I'm really muscling primers in is the main ram and its components shifting slightly to the rear of the press.

[ChuckS]

Erik,

I had a similar thing on my old 550 happen. All of a sudden, it started leaving high primers. It didn't make sense until I noticed that the handle was hitting the bench when I pushed in to seat. It had not hit the bench for about 30K rounds so it was a mystery until I noticed that the casting that the handle fits in to had cracks on the ears that connect to the ram! (Mongo make bullet!). Until the handle hit the stop, it was not clear what was going on. Check over the parts that "should not break" carefully. Your comment "One thing I noticed when I'm really muscling primers in is the main ram and its components shifting slightly to the rear of the press." made me remember this! The cracked crank showed some torque on the ram due to the pressure differential on the ram. (one side was cracked further than the other)

Good Luck,

Chuck

[benos]

I haven't loaded much on a 650... but I do remember developing a "two-stage push" when seating primers on a 550, which helped keep the primers below flush. The first part of "the push" kind of "set the stage" for the final push. You definitely need to learn to feel each primer's cup seating/stopping against the bottom of the primer pocket. If you don't feel that, it probably ain't seated. And don't worry about pushing or "seating too hard" - for revolver loads, I'd adjust my 1050 to seat the primers "so" deep that you could see the anvil starting to poke it's way into the top of the cup. I never set a primer off in the machine when seating that deep.

be