What causes flyers?

[rowdyb]

What causes flyers? Specifically in a coated bullet. I know in the past if I had a lot of weird hits with plated bullets my crimp was probably way off. But is it the same deal with moly/coated bullets?

Example, shooting 30 rounds at 10 yards, slow fire, single action. My group will be 2-3" and then I'll have an uncalled hit like 4" away randomly.

If you want/need specifics of my load to help diagnose it I can share, but more interested in the concept of what causes flyers. Crimp? Bullet manufacture qa/qc? Low powder charge? Torn coating?....??

[4me2ply]

Can you absolutely rule out human error? I know I've had the occasional flyer when shooting rifle groups and since my firearm wasn't clamped down I attributed it to movement on my part.

Edited February 3, 2016 by 4me2ply

[jmtyndall]

If the bullet isn't tumbling is probably human error. Even my stock guns will put 10 rounds into a ragged hole at 10 yards with factory junk ammo.

Anything outside of that is usually me. I think your answer will come from two things. Have another person try to repeat the problem or shoot from a rest. Buy a box of factory ammo, try to shoot the same group. Shoot this ammo through another gun and try to replicate the problem. This will help you determine if it's shooter or gun or ammo.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Edited February 3, 2016 by jmtyndall

[rowdyb]

I would bet my life on it not being me. That said, what are the things that I might be doing in the loading process that would cause a flyer?

[Jake Di Vita]

I would bet my life on it not being me. That said, what are the things that I might be doing in the loading process that would cause a flyer?

That's a pretty bold statement. One I would not make if it were me.

[d_striker]

Like Jake, I wouldn't completely rule out human error. Even off a stable pistol rest, shooting at 20 yards, human error still comes into play for me personally.

But to answer your question, these are the variables affecting repeatability that I have found in my process.

-OAL of mixed brass. Shorter cases will receive less crimp while longer cases get crimped more.

-Case wall thickness among mixed brass. Thicker case walled brass may size a coated/plated bullet down more than you think while seating a bullet. And if you're using a FCD, I can say with 99% certainty that it's undersizing some of your bullets in thicker walled brass. Accuracy with plated and coated bullets seem to have a very large relationship to bullet size vs. bore size.

-Powder throw consistency

-OAL of finished round. Even using a Redding competition seating die, I have an OAL variance of up to +.005" I'm guessing due to the mixed brass.

Although I can't finitely quantify how much impact each of these variables has on accuracy, I would certainly doubt that it would cause the type of flyers you're seeing at 10 yards.

ETA-Do you ever see evidence of your bullets tumbling at 15-20 yards? Many times, bullets won't start tumbling until they go past 10 yards. If yes, I would start investigating what your bore slugs at and pull some bullets to see what they measure at. Pull the bullets from brass that has thicker case walls such as CBC.

Edited February 3, 2016 by d_striker

[Jake Di Vita]

FWIW, I first read it as the target at 30 yards and 10 rounds....30 rounds at 10 yards does make it less likely that it is you, but I still wouldn't rule it out completely. A 2 or 3 inch group at 10 yards isn't good enough to where I'd be shocked to see a 4 inch flier in there. If you were putting 29/30 through the same hole, I'd be more inclined to say it wasn't you.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[mpssrh]

Put your gun in a Ransom Rest and shoot the ammo in question.

If there are no flyers, I think the answer to your question will become apparent.

[rowdyb]

FWIW, I first read it as the target at 30 yards and 10 rounds....30 rounds at 10 yards does make it less likely that it is you, but I still wouldn't rule it out completely. A 2 or 3 inch group at 10 yards isn't good enough to where I'd be shocked to see a 4 inch flier in there. If you were putting 29/30 through the same hole, I'd be more inclined to say it wasn't you.

4" from the edge of my group. If I can pound in A's of a 3" group all day just standing at 10 yards without a single C and one goes into the C/D border, aaaannnddd I didn't call it as it happened. Yeah, I still stick by my statement I'd bet my life on it not being me. (and I have to be honest in reporting my group size. i'm not shooting a 1" group at 10 yards off hand all day. but i am shooting a 3" group without effort)

I have had tumbling ammo before, plated bullets, and it was my crimp. Today I was doing the chrono of a new load and after seeing it made powerfactor no issues I went to shooting groups. With some odd results, thus the question to my post. I've never had odd flyers with any jacketed bullet I've shot, my reloads. But I've had issues with plated.

I've shot probably 6k of the bullets I'm using now without any issue like this at all. The only thing I changed on my load was OAL and powder charge. I went from 1.090" to 1.100" and from 3.0 Titegroup to 2.90 grains. Testing showed an anomoly I've yet to see, so I wonder what caused it. It was 3 bullets out of 40 total shot all at once, all from the same spot, from the same run of ammo I made.

Edited February 4, 2016 by rowdyb

[mlmiller1]

-Case wall thickness among mixed brass. Thicker case walled brass may size a coated/plated bullet down more than you think while seating a bullet.

That's my best guess. Second idea is under/oversized bullet. Have you mic'd a bunch of your bullets to see if any are under or over?

MLM

[bowenbuilt]

Most, if not all flyers in auto pistols are caused by the first round fired. Every auto pistol I own will put the first round away from the main group. The reason for this is caused by the lock up difference between loading the first round by hand and the gun loading the rest of the rounds violently will always get a slightly different lock up than the first round gently loaded by the user. If I shoot for groups I will always shoot the first round off the target for this reason. You need to know where the first round is going if you have to compensate for it at long range so I pay attention and keep notes on the different guns I own if I know I may have some long range targets to address out of the holster or off of a table. The rest of the flyers could be caused from a number of stackable reasons but I have found the first shot to be the most likely cause in most cases.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm saying a 3 inch group at 10 yards isn't what I would expect from a shooter that calls 100% of his shots and never shoots fliers. It's not impossible that you simply called a shot incorrectly. It's easy to say something like "I bet my life" because you can't actually bet your life. Even as a GM I've had shots on 7 yard targets at matches that I swore were alphas that ended up alpha mike. It doesn't happen often, but it happens and no one is immune to it. Leaping towards blaming the equipment is rarely the correct path to take. By all means, keep investigating, but you should always at least be open to the possibility that it was operator error.

It seems like if it were an equipment problem, you'd have more than one flier.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[rowdyb]

The reason why I'm so adamant it's not my error is because I know exactly what that is like. These few sight pictures, trigger pulls in no way ever matched the times I've shot a bad shot. Which I've done tons of.

(as for betting my life, i've been in live or die places before, so i'm familiar with that feeling as well)

I'm trying to make this a mechanical discussion, not a pissing match about my shooting.

[Jake Di Vita]

Pissing match? A bit sensitive aren't we?

Good luck on your problem, I'm out.

[9x45]

I've shot with Rowdy, and it's absolutely not the shooter! This guy kicks most shooters asses back to kinder garden. My experience with coated and plated bullets is they like more juice than less juice. I run 124 TC Bayous at 1.100" on top of 4.3 grains of TiteGroup.

[AzShooter]

Shoot a few groups off the bench with a solid rest and see if you can duplicate your problem. Ransom Rest is good but very expensive. At 10 yards with the right ammo you should be printing one ragged hole.

Do not use mixed range brass. Just that will attribute a flyer. What kind of plated bullets are you using? Some plated bullets can have the plating come off during crimp. Make sure you are not crimping too much.

Best advise is : Get someone else to shoot your gun and see if it still happens. Use Factory Ammo and see if you get a flyer.

[jcc7x7]

I'm saying a 3 inch group at 10 yards isn't what I would expect from a shooter that calls 100% of his shots and never shoots fliers. It's not impossible that you simply called a shot incorrectly. It's easy to say something like "I bet my life" because you can't actually bet your life. Even as a GM I've had shots on 7 yard targets at matches that I swore were alphas that ended up alpha mike. It doesn't happen often, but it happens and no one is immune to it. Leaping towards blaming the equipment is rarely the correct path to take. By all means, keep investigating, but you should always at least be open to the possibility that it was operator error.

It seems like if it were an equipment problem, you'd have more than one flier.

Had one tonight at a local practice match^^^^^^^^^^ still don't know where it went "maybe it was a perfect double!" LOL

Seriously get fifty cases from same batch obviously same head stamp

Trim them to same length

load them as normal

then

Set up chrono with a target behind the chrono

and shoot them in groups of ten from a rest

Then compare any shots out of the group to the chrono result

you might find its with a high or low shot in your string, unlikely but possible, in which case work on your load for a lower SD

This should eliminate as many variables as possible

I know when I'm shooting a lot I loose concentration for a split second and that when a shot goes some where I don't think it should.

good fortune in finding the concern

jcc7x7

[UrbanRedneck]

I bet it's differing lock-up caused by anything from a tired or too light recoil spring to the aforementioned difference in brass thickness.

[9x45]

Rowdy is an experienced shooter, not a newbie. This is not a shooter or gun issue, it's a bullet issue. I picked up 1,500 plated bullets as match product recently. Without changing either charge weight or OAL from my Bayous, I loaded up 250 to test run in a match. First stage had a dozen near squibs with black, sooty cases. Shot a group before moving to the next stage, all over the place. Went back to the truck and got the good bullets, and threw the plated bullets in the "junk box", not for matches. The name of the bullets rhymes with this fruit....

Edited February 4, 2016 by 9x45

[TJART]

Rowdy is an experienced shooter, not a newbie. This is not a shooter or gun issue, it's a bullet issue. I picked up 1,500 plated bullets as match product recently. Without changing either charge weight or OAL from my Bayous, I loaded up 250 to test run in a match. First stage had a dozen near squibs with black, sooty cases. Shot a group before moving to the next stage, all over the place. Went back to the truck and got the good bullets, and threw the plated bullets in the "junk box", not for matches. The name of the bullets rhymes with this fruit....

So let me get this straight; you ordered a different manufactures bullet, and loaded it up to your previous manufacturers specs?

Edited February 4, 2016 by TJART

[Glockinator]

To get back to a more mechanical discussion of flyers imagine a bullet with a void on one side or something else that could cause a variance of weight to disturb the balance. As the rotational forces act on it after it leaves the barrel it could cause the flight to spiral without wobbling. You may not see stability issues show up as keyholes in some cases. Same could be said for bullets with uneven or flawed bases. As that bullet exits the end of the barrel the gasses acting on it could jet off to one side or some other oddity and cause the trajectory to deviate slightly. If you look at differences in bullet weight such as 1 to 2 grains from bullet to bullet it is postulated that the bullet stays in the bore for a different length of time and exits at a different point in the upward recoil of the gun. I'd expect this to show up more as vertical stringing.

Any difference in uniformity of any kind from bullet to bullet could potentially cause a difference in trajectory. The question is how much of a difference does it make. In some rifle loads I have gone wacko weighing and segregating cases and bullets and hand trickling powder and uniforming cases. How much difference it made was hard to tell as that rifle was a half moa shooter and at that point it was hard to tell if the difference was ammo related or shooter related.

[yoshidaex]

Too many variables to say its one thing.

[Miranda]

that is what we are checking.... what variables exist.

a flyer is a flyer

I have a rifle that does not do flyers.... 'tis all me when a hole appears out of a group.

my pistol.... I think the ammo or pistol is involved.

what causes flyers... things to try? in what order?

are uneven bases worse than uneven powder?

or is out of balance worse than too much crimp?

will head space cause more problems?

will a loose slide give the odd flyer or will it open the group?

miranda

[IDescribe]

Rowdy is using coated bullets.

Rowdy, are they Blue Bullets?
______________________

So what can cause flyers?

As someone said, a void in the bullet.

Bad powder drop.

Inconsistent crimp, which can come from different lengths, the likelihood of which is increased by mixed headstamps.

Too little powder.

Too little velocity -- the bullet not having enough rotational velocity to remain gyro-stabilized.

Your pistol is locking up dramatically different one out of ten shots, possibly the first shot as previously mentioned, possibly not.

Early barrel unlock during the burn. Do you have an older M&P?

In YOUR case, you loaded longer and reduced powder charge. There's a good chance your problem is tied to this. You might have reduced pressure enough that it's taking the case too long to expand and create a good pressure seal, and different amounts of expanding gas and unburned powder are escaping around the case from shot to shot, or on that 1 out of 10 throws that's particularly low. Or it might be that your pistol simply doesn't like that bullet at that velocity.

I assume you're using 147gr bullets?

Another possibility is the bullet being sized poorly to the barrel, allowing it to jump lands. Are they Blue? They might be Blue. If they're Blue Bullets, they're sized .355, which is a bit undersized for lead. Lead and coated should be .356/.357.358. Blue Bullets said they tested, and .355 was optimal for them, but Blue Bullets in MY land & groove rifling CZ pistols do exactly what your bullets are doing -- good, good, good, good, flyer... good, good, good, good, flyer. In my polygonal rifled barrels, they're fine, but in my land & groove rifled barrels, Blue Bullets are unacceptable.

AND there's a chance it's a combination of things. It could be that a number of variables were less than optimal, but still working fine, then you dropped your powder charge, extended your OAL, lowered pressure and velocity, and suddenly some of those less than optimal variables reared their ugly heads.

The first thing you need to do is take case and crimp out of the equation. Sort by headstamp. Maybe take the time to measure out cases and get 30 of the same length. Shoot off of a rest. Let someone else shoot. And at the end of the day, you can always raise your powder charge back up. I'm shooting 147 with 3.3/3.4 grains of TG. Depending on gun and profile, sometimes 147gr bullets like a little extra speed.

Please update. I'm curious.

Edited February 4, 2016 by IDescribe

[TJART]

Rowdy is using coated bullets.

Rowdy, are they Blue Bullets?

______________________ I'm shooting 147 with 3.3/3.4 grains of TG. Depending on gun and profile, sometimes 147gr bullets like a little extra speed.

Please update. I'm curious.

I'm running 147 Blues with 3.0 TG and no issues.