Sandbagger123 Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 there was some discussion on if shooting a disppearing target after it is laying flat on the ground after activation is legal or not. i tried looking it up in the rule book and could not find anything. So is it legal? if not what would the penalty be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Well, If you can see it after activation, it has not disappeared, has it? From the glossary (Appendix A3): Disappearing target ..........A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement. Edited January 11, 2016 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 here is the target. in the the vid it end like the target on the left http://mgmtargets.com/poppers/cardboard-target-pop-up-bracket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 It is not disappearing so yes you could shoot it. Lets say a no shoot fell over it and covered 100% after it went to the ground, then it would be a disappearing target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 "Shoot em' as you see em'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRYJ Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 It should be covered in the stage briefing on if it is disappearing or not. If it is disappearing, it should not be available to shoot after it's movement. It should be covered in some way. With that target lying flat, it is not disappearing. I would shoot it. If not shot, two mikes and a failure to engage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 If the white part is facing you, it's a no-shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 here is vid of the match. watch at 53 seconds for the stage. some shooter were able to pie around the barrel and shoot it . target was declared diappearing on the stage description . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastly Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Lessons learned for stage designer and prop purchaser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Lessons learned for stage designer and prop purchaser. +1 LOL! Ain't that the truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 We had one like that a palmetto gun club a couple months back. Stage brief said no shooting target on ground,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) We had one like that a palmetto gun club a couple months back. Stage brief said no shooting target on ground,. What USPSA rule supports that? Edited January 12, 2016 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) Looks like a Level I match and you indicate it was designated a disappearing target on the WSB, so congratulate the shooter on their "out of the box" thinking and score it as two NP mikes. "9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties" Edited January 12, 2016 by Flatland Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 We had one like that a palmetto gun club a couple months back. Stage brief said no shooting target on ground,. What USPSA rule supports that? Possibly: "1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes, specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged and specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only. Long courses are exclusively governed by 1.1.5." and: "2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation. 2.1.8.5.1Level One matches are encouraged but not required to comply with this requirement. The Written Stage Briefing (WSB) may prohibit competitors from engaging certain targets which may be visible prior to activation until the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Nope : 2.1.8.5.1Level One matches are encouraged but not required to comply with this requirement. The Written Stage Briefing (WSB) may prohibit competitors from engaging certain targets which may be visible prior to activation until the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated (see Rule 9.9.4) The target was already activated, so it goes back 1.1.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 We have several of those targets, and none of ours travel beyond upright when activated. I'm wondering if it's not assembled correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted January 12, 2016 Author Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) We have several of those targets, and none of ours travel beyond upright when activated. I'm wondering if it's not assembled correctly. there is hole for a pin to adjust the travel. can do upright and flat. So it seems the consensus is bad stage design allowed it to be shot when it should not have is the answer Edited January 12, 2016 by Sandbagger123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 BTW, not always worth shooting a small, partial target - if it takes four seconds to shoot it twice, you may be better off NOT shooting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 I have one of these for practice and if you shoot it from 15 yards with a barricade in front of it you can not see the target on the ground. The barricade (board) covers 1/3 of the popper. The key is to shoot something else after the popper. If your really good you can shoot more than one thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 We had one like that a palmetto gun club a couple months back. Stage brief said no shooting target on ground,.What USPSA rule supports that?None that I know of..Anyway there were two barrels blocking view after it fell.Level one match,and most shooters just let it go as NPM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver60540 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Well, If you can see it after activation, it has not disappeared, has it? From the glossary (Appendix A3): Disappearing target ..........A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Anyway there were two barrels blocking view after it fell.Level one match,and most shooters just let it go as NPM. That's one reason the barrels where put there so that folks would't attempt to shoot it while it was on the ground. We want the lead going into the berms and not into the ground. No one complained about the way the stage was setup and run so I'm sure we'll see it used in that configuration again in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) (at 1 minute 8 seconds) I opted not to shoot it. My hit factor was about 10.5 so I don't think there would have been a way to shoot it without reducing my HF. Maybe it would have been worth it for shooters in other divisions. If you shot it by approaching the port in the barrels it wouldn't be visible. If you shot it like I shot it would be visible on the ground. Not a big deal I think. Edited January 13, 2016 by NickBlasta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 It would have been interesting to see the hits on the target for those that chose to shoot it when it was down. In the video it looks like the target was far enough away that 9.5.5 might come into play? For those not familiar.. 9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evidence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown” etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 It would have been interesting to see the hits on the target for those that chose to shoot it when it was down. In the video it looks like the target was far enough away that 9.5.5 might come into play? For those not familiar.. 9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evidence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown” etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter. Unless. he was shooting into a rock or concrete floor 9.5.5 will not apply. Then the splatter back may cause some scoring discussions. That rule is to prevent splatter from counting. I am sure we will be able to find evidence of a bullet hole(s). It will be elongated, but it will be scoreable. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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