Strick Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Interestingly enough 5.1.11 prohibits use of handguns capable of burst or full auto. Wonder if that should carry over to a PCC? I would think there is a reason USPSA forbids it and it seems reasonable the same concern would still apply My assumption is that full auto and burst fire would continue to be prohibited. Machine pistols have existed for more than 100 years, but I don't hear a lot about them being mis-used at USPSA handgun matches. I don't know why we would expect PCCs to be any more problematic. Handguns don't have a selector switch that can be bumped to auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 I've never shot a 3 gun match but I came across this video from Area 6 today. I don't see any shots in this match, other than clays, that couldn't be performed with a PCC. Why couldn't PCC be rolled out with multi-gun where a rule set exists for them. They just shoot the entire match with PCC. 1) That match is very unusual. Many/most 3-Gun matches include rifle targets out to 500M and beyond, so PCC is not viable. Seems simple. Just alter the COF for PCC so they don't have to shoot th same targets as rifle cartridge. How hard is it to change the COF, targets, and have separate shooting challenges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 I've never shot a 3 gun match but I came across this video from Area 6 today. I don't see any shots in this match, other than clays, that couldn't be performed with a PCC. Why couldn't PCC be rolled out with multi-gun where a rule set exists for them. They just shoot the entire match with PCC. 1) That match is very unusual. Many/most 3-Gun matches include rifle targets out to 500M and beyond, so PCC is not viable. Seems simple. Just alter the COF for PCC so they don't have to shoot th same targets as rifle cartridge. How hard is it to change the COF, targets, and have separate shooting challenges? Just as simple as adding additional shooting areas and writing different WSB's for them in handgun matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Interestingly enough 5.1.11 prohibits use of handguns capable of burst or full auto. Wonder if that should carry over to a PCC? I would think there is a reason USPSA forbids it and it seems reasonable the same concern would still apply My assumption is that full auto and burst fire would continue to be prohibited. Machine pistols have existed for more than 100 years, but I don't hear a lot about them being mis-used at USPSA handgun matches. I don't know why we would expect PCCs to be any more problematic. Handguns don't have a selector switch that can be bumped to auto. You sure about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) Glock 18 and Beretta 93R seem to come to mind, but then again everyone own's machineguns right?! Edited February 5, 2016 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Interestingly enough 5.1.11 prohibits use of handguns capable of burst or full auto. Wonder if that should carry over to a PCC? I would think there is a reason USPSA forbids it and it seems reasonable the same concern would still apply My assumption is that full auto and burst fire would continue to be prohibited. Machine pistols have existed for more than 100 years, but I don't hear a lot about them being mis-used at USPSA handgun matches. I don't know why we would expect PCCs to be any more problematic. Handguns don't have a selector switch that can be bumped to auto. But parts can still break and get worn out and render a handgun full auto in the eyes of the BATFE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Interestingly enough 5.1.11 prohibits use of handguns capable of burst or full auto. Wonder if that should carry over to a PCC? I would think there is a reason USPSA forbids it and it seems reasonable the same concern would still apply My assumption is that full auto and burst fire would continue to be prohibited. Machine pistols have existed for more than 100 years, but I don't hear a lot about them being mis-used at USPSA handgun matches. I don't know why we would expect PCCs to be any more problematic. Handguns don't have a selector switch that can be bumped to auto. But parts can still break and get worn out and render a handgun full auto in the eyes of the BATFE.But for OUR matches that's not the issue. I have seen plenty of guns double and triple. But you can't even use a gun with select fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 In spite of all the angst that has gone on here, I am really pleased to see that this thread hasn't been locked or over modded. I hope the policy makers of USPSA see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 It seems I've seen this same old rhetoric being preached over and over again on why something shouldn't be, from 8 Round Revolvers, to CO, and now PCC. There is too much redundancy in this thread and I'm afraid we'll just keep going in circles of subjective arguments. What we do know is the DNROI has been tasked to work up a set of rules for a possible PCC provisional division and to have it ready by the next board meeting, which should be in March. Many PCC events USPSA, Steel Challenge, or OUTLAW have been held plenty times around the country without issue, and even some USPSA Match directors have stated they allowed PCC to shoot in a match and had no issues. I'll just wait it out, and send objective input for PCC to DNROI. And Cha-lee if you don't want to run PCC once approved that's fine, that's why I also have a pistol. But I can almost guarantee it will be offered at WPGC That is great news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 It seems I've seen this same old rhetoric being preached over and over again on why something shouldn't be, from 8 Round Revolvers, to CO, and now PCC. There is too much redundancy in this thread and I'm afraid we'll just keep going in circles of subjective arguments. What we do know is the DNROI has been tasked to work up a set of rules for a possible PCC provisional division and to have it ready by the next board meeting, which should be in March. Many PCC events USPSA, Steel Challenge, or OUTLAW have been held plenty times around the country without issue, and even some USPSA Match directors have stated they allowed PCC to shoot in a match and had no issues. I'll just wait it out, and send objective input for PCC to DNROI. And Cha-lee if you don't want to run PCC once approved that's fine, that's why I also have a pistol. But I can almost guarantee it will be offered at WPGC That is great news! Yay! " my team is winning" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I'd like to shoot a PCC match. But not concurrent with a pistol match. I see disparity in course design that precludes running both matches at the same time. Also, at least in our area USPSA pistol matches are at or very near capacity. What we need are more ranges, then worry about more shooters. Run USPSA PCC matches absolutely, just not on top of existing handgun matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I'd like to shoot a PCC match. But not concurrent with a pistol match. I see disparity in course design that precludes running both matches at the same time. Also, at least in our area USPSA pistol matches are at or very near capacity. What we need are more ranges, then worry about more shooters. Run USPSA PCC matches absolutely, just not on top of existing handgun matches. I think there is a lot of meeting of minds in what you have said. I would also like to see PCC eventually stand on its own two feet, with separate matches and even separate rules (not handgun or multigun rules). Unfortunately, this is a classic chicken-and-egg situation; how many people are going to gear up for PCC when there are no matches for them, and how many ranges are going to build stand-alone PCC matches when there is no proven participation? If we accept the premise that practical PCC as a discipline has some potential, then I applaud USPSA for breaking the cycle of inertia and trying to create a competitive venue for PCCs. This is the very essence of what a provisional division is intended to do. If it succeeds, then write a new PCC rulebook and encourage clubs to run dedicated matches. If it fails, then kill it. I am OK with either outcome - what I am not OK with is not even trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 It seems I've seen this same old rhetoric being preached over and over again on why something shouldn't be, from 8 Round Revolvers, to CO, and now PCC. There is too much redundancy in this thread and I'm afraid we'll just keep going in circles of subjective arguments. What we do know is the DNROI has been tasked to work up a set of rules for a possible PCC provisional division and to have it ready by the next board meeting, which should be in March. Many PCC events USPSA, Steel Challenge, or OUTLAW have been held plenty times around the country without issue, and even some USPSA Match directors have stated they allowed PCC to shoot in a match and had no issues. I'll just wait it out, and send objective input for PCC to DNROI. And Cha-lee if you don't want to run PCC once approved that's fine, that's why I also have a pistol. But I can almost guarantee it will be offered at WPGC That is great news! Yay! " my team is winning" Sounds like sour grapes to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 It seems I've seen this same old rhetoric being preached over and over again on why something shouldn't be, from 8 Round Revolvers, to CO, and now PCC. There is too much redundancy in this thread and I'm afraid we'll just keep going in circles of subjective arguments. What we do know is the DNROI has been tasked to work up a set of rules for a possible PCC provisional division and to have it ready by the next board meeting, which should be in March. Many PCC events USPSA, Steel Challenge, or OUTLAW have been held plenty times around the country without issue, and even some USPSA Match directors have stated they allowed PCC to shoot in a match and had no issues. I'll just wait it out, and send objective input for PCC to DNROI. And Cha-lee if you don't want to run PCC once approved that's fine, that's why I also have a pistol. But I can almost guarantee it will be offered at WPGC That is great news! Yay! " my team is winning" Sounds like sour grapes to me. Naw, Ultimo has seen the light and is now walking down the righteous path of pew pew pew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 It seems I've seen this same old rhetoric being preached over and over again on why something shouldn't be, from 8 Round Revolvers, to CO, and now PCC. There is too much redundancy in this thread and I'm afraid we'll just keep going in circles of subjective arguments. What we do know is the DNROI has been tasked to work up a set of rules for a possible PCC provisional division and to have it ready by the next board meeting, which should be in March. Many PCC events USPSA, Steel Challenge, or OUTLAW have been held plenty times around the country without issue, and even some USPSA Match directors have stated they allowed PCC to shoot in a match and had no issues. I'll just wait it out, and send objective input for PCC to DNROI. And Cha-lee if you don't want to run PCC once approved that's fine, that's why I also have a pistol. But I can almost guarantee it will be offered at WPGC That is great news! Yay! " my team is winning" Sounds like sour grapes to me. Naw, Ultimo has seen the light and is now walking down the righteous path of pew pew pew. Sweet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 It seems I've seen this same old rhetoric being preached over and over again on why something shouldn't be, from 8 Round Revolvers, to CO, and now PCC. There is too much redundancy in this thread and I'm afraid we'll just keep going in circles of subjective arguments. What we do know is the DNROI has been tasked to work up a set of rules for a possible PCC provisional division and to have it ready by the next board meeting, which should be in March. Many PCC events USPSA, Steel Challenge, or OUTLAW have been held plenty times around the country without issue, and even some USPSA Match directors have stated they allowed PCC to shoot in a match and had no issues. I'll just wait it out, and send objective input for PCC to DNROI. And Cha-lee if you don't want to run PCC once approved that's fine, that's why I also have a pistol. But I can almost guarantee it will be offered at WPGC That is great news! Yay! " my team is winning" Sounds like sour grapes to me. Naw, Ultimo has seen the light and is now walking down the righteous path of pew pew pew. Sweet! I don't recommend sweeping him however... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 I don't recommend sweeping him however... As opposed to... ...the people you do recommend sweeping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 I got swept 20 times today just watching a few minutes of SHOT show footage. Couldn't help but think of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 I don't recommend sweeping him however... As opposed to... ...the people you do recommend sweeping? Old joke. About 3 pages back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I don't recommend sweeping him however... As opposed to... ...the people you do recommend sweeping? Old joke. About 3 pages back... Yes, I was aware of it. As you and I have worked together, I thought I'd take the opportunity to reply with an amusing (to me) and somewhat rehtorical question. So very much of this thread (not you) has been a mind-numbing waste. Disappointing. Respectfully, ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangerdug Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters. The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches. Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate. Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited February 12, 2016 by Rangerdug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters. The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches. Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate. Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk So let me get this straight, you're saying that the people that don't agree with you are: Prideful, insecure, selfish, egotistical, bluntly ignorant, and dogmatically stupid. Very "adult" of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I don't recommend sweeping him however... As opposed to... ...the people you do recommend sweeping? Old joke. About 3 pages back... Yes, I was aware of it. As you and I have worked together, I thought I'd take the opportunity to reply with an amusing (to me) and somewhat rehtorical question. So very much of this thread (not you) has been a mind-numbing waste. Disappointing. Respectfully, ac Oh, I don't know about that... Some good discussion, some amusing back and forth, some different perspectives to consider... In other words: Ops normal on Benos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastly Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters. The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches. Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate. Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk So let me get this straight, you're saying that the people that don't agree with you are: Prideful, insecure, selfish, egotistical, bluntly ignorant, and dogmatically stupid.Very "adult" of you. There is a difference between critiquing the arguments that have been made vs. the people making the arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwinG Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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