Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[ChuckS]

The club I frequent is moving to a Saturday and Sunday club match format due to high number of shooters at our Sunday matches. If you add PCC, and someone wants to shoot that and their pistol, limit it to one gun per day. At Majors, have them shoot PCC or their pistol on the Staff day (which anyone can request to shoot that day), and the other gun on the normal match day(s). I understand that not all clubs would be able to make use of a double match format, but it's not a bad option.

On another note: I think that the rules and stage descriptions would need to specify using props as support for the PCC. This could raise some safety concerns, and impact the durability of some props.

6.2.4 covers multiple entries at majors:

6.2.4 Subject to the prior approval of the Match Director, a competitor may enter a match in more than one Division. However, the competitor may compete for match score in only one Division, and that must be the first attempt in all cases. Any subsequent attempts in another Division will not count for match recognition.

6.2.4.1 Level I matches may allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition.

[DocMedic]

There are already RULES in USPSA on how "Long Guns" are handled when shooter is at before and after the ULSC. So I do not understand why there is such a resistance to add PCC to a normal USPSA match based on safety concerns? All items are covered under 5.2.3 USPSA Rifle, Shotgun and Multigun rules Feb 01 2014.

As for slowing down the match, how so? Can someone please explain to me how a shooter who is running a PCC will slow a match down anymore then a open, revo, or production shooter? I only asked this as I've CRO'd for the past 6 years in many major and large 3gun events and I have never had notice once that ULSC with a rifle was any slower then a pistol. Even starting with a rifle I find it in my own experience a shooter is ready faster with a rifle then a pistol as a rifle shooter only needs to do his sight picture, load and go to the start position of "low ready" or "port arms".

I would also like to ask, how many shooters do you think would shoot in a PCC division? I might know 4 or 5 people here locally that would shoot PCC seriously but that's really it. Others might shoot it once in a while in lieu of there normal USPSA division, but I don't see them coming in droves as some of the post in this thread seem to suggest. If I would had guess I say attendance would be more then L10, Revo, and CO. probably closer to Single stack depending on your location, but I don't see it ever hitting Production,limited and open numbers.

I know there are going to be some rules that would need to be worked out such as "facing up range" "hands above shoulders" etc etc. But honestly those are easy fixes, after all PCC would only Compete against other PCC shooters, just how Limited only scored against limited shooters and not production shooters

Edited January 25, 2016 by DocMedic

[Cherryriver]

AR shooters will indeed come in droves. They are already swamping the 3-gun and multigun matches in this region.
Another issue: about 1/4 to 1/3 of classifier stages won't work well with PCC. Either they get modified, tossed, or we can't use them in matches with PCC Division for classifiers.

[ChuckB]

I think bagging and un-bagging would slow things down. The RO already has a job to do and it shouldn't involve carrying someone's Pelican case to the end of the stage. I can also imagine the chaos of trying to get someone back to the beginning of the stage where they left their bag. I'm sure some ranges could have issues with it but I'm all for chamber flags and a dedicated muzzle direction.

I'm also all for PCC, I think it sounds like a lot of fun and would be more exciting then Carry Optics. I would just like to see it introduced without limitations on equipment. If there is enough interest then maybe it will need to be divided up later but for now I would rather see a shoot what you brought division.

[Beastly]

AR shooters will indeed come in droves. They are already swamping the 3-gun and multigun matches in this region.

Another issue: about 1/4 to 1/3 of classifier stages won't work well with PCC. Either they get modified, tossed, or we can't use them in matches with PCC Division for classifiers.

Standard AR-15's are not PCC's. Most won't have a PCC and if they buy one specifically to compete in USPSA - is that a bad thing?

[DocMedic]

I just at a lost.. There are already rules addressing how "long guns" will be handled, you DO NOT HAVE TO bag and unbag at the Make ready and ULSC.

MarkCO here on the boards ran a Rifle only match in Lieu of a normal 3gun match, Division where simple, TacOPS, .22 Rifles, and PCC. yes the match was a great success with +50 shooters! we had only 3 or 4 PCC shooters...

As for classifiers goes, as mention above slight exemption to rules would be different for PCC shooters and PCC shooters only, such as "facing up range" PCC= "downrange, low ready"

Edited January 25, 2016 by DocMedic

[Cherryriver]

So far, the (fair number of) people at my club expressing a desire to shoot PCC are all equipped with 9mm ARs of one sort or another.

My stance is: everybody should shoot everything. That means you, too, Seehawer.
But what goes on at USPSA pistol matches might be a different thing. Again, I will wait to see the rules, then run tests of actual matches to see what the real-life results are.

I've run quite a lot of 3-gun and multigun matches, along with tac rifle and others. My direct experience in them suggests slowing things down. That's where my primary concern is. My personal opinion about the validity of the division isn't in play. The consensus opinion of my hard-working volunteers is. So after we test the running, assuming the division is actually introduced, I will be influenced by that more than anything.

[DocMedic]

Fair enough, at this point we do not have any idea what the rule set might be for said PCC division, but it wouldn't surprise me that we can make a educated guess based on 3GN rules set of PCC as well as those who have ran a version of PCC at their local match regardless outlaw or USPSA.

3Gun is a given, more Weapon manipulation = Slower stages thus "slowing down", but you said you run Tac rifle matches also. Are these matches ran in a USPSA pistol berm style format, or are they ran more like a 3gun match where targets vary from distances beyond 50 yards? How long do your stages run? Are stages limited to be no more then 32 rounds on a long field course of fire? I'm just trying to get at that you can't correlate a rifle match to a pistol match if they don't follow the same parameters.

Edited January 25, 2016 by DocMedic

[motosapiens]

I'm just trying to get at that you can't correlate a rifle match to a pistol match if they don't follow the same parameters.

As was posted earlier, anecdotal experience suggests the rifles take longer than pistols at steel challenge matches, shooting the exact same stages.

Edited January 25, 2016 by motosapiens

[DocMedic]

Steel Challenge would be a better comparison of the two I would agree however I seem to bring like 3 to 4 guns when I go shoot SC (.22 rifle, Pistol, .22 Pistol and now PCC). Are the matches slowing down because of people like me that brings every possible gun to shoot? or are they truly slowing down so much because of PCC shooters? Should we limit how many guns one can shoot at a Steel Challenge match to make the match go faster?

Edited January 25, 2016 by DocMedic

[motosapiens]

Steel Challenge would be a better comparison of the two I would agree however I seem to bring like 3 to 4 guns when I go shoot SC (.22 rifle, Pistol, .22 Pistol and now PCC). Are the matches slowing down because of people like me that brings every possible gun to shoot? or are they truly slowing down so much because of PCC shooters? Should we limit how many guns one can shoot at a Steel Challenge match to make the match go faster?

We limit it to 2 guns at our weekly matches.

I'm just talking about the individual shooters taking measurably longer with rifle, not talking about total match time or anything. I have watched 1000's of shooters, and noticed that all else being equal, rifle shooters take longer.

of course beginners take even longerer, and people with guns that don't run take longerer than that.

[DocMedic]

Interesting are you willing to share your results? I help run a level 2 Steel challenge last year, we had 7 PCC shooters, most we ever seen at this match so far, I average their times and I got 107.9 secs for a 8 stage Steel challenge match. I Also Averaged are top 7 Limited shooters and they average 150.1 secs. 4 out of the top 7 are at least Master or higher in USPSA, Only 3 of the 7 are rated in USPSA that shot PCC, which only one was a Master Open shooter.

Edited January 25, 2016 by DocMedic

[motosapiens]

I shared all the results I have. I noticed, that is all. Note that I am not talking about their shooting scores, but simply how long it takes to run the shooter, from make ready to range is clear. bagging and unbagging takes time, as does chasing down magazines that are generally not on the belt.

And to be fair, i am talking about rimfire rifles. We have had exactly zero shooters show up with PCC's.

[ZackJones]

When comparing Rimfire to centerfire at steel challenge matches the center fire shooters will almost always be faster to run through a stage than a rimfire shooter. In my experience there's not a significant enough difference that it causes the match to slow down though. We do limit our shooters to 2 guns for our monthly club match. At the SC State Championship I opened it up to 3 guns so that I could guarantee enough shooters to hold the match. The important thing is that the shooter come to the line prepared to shoot. As long as they do that we can keep things moving along.

[r01]

I shared all the results I have. I noticed, that is all. Note that I am not talking about their shooting scores, but simply how long it takes to run the shooter, from make ready to range is clear. bagging and unbagging takes time, as does chasing down magazines that are generally not on the belt.

And to be fair, i am talking about rimfire rifles. We have had exactly zero shooters show up with PCC's.

Can't you just unbag in the safe area, walk muzzle up to the start position, and wait until told to make ready while everyone is scoring the last shooter?

Then after ULSC walk muzzle up to the safe area and bag the rifle while others begin scoring?

This is what we've done at the rifle matches I've attended and it seems pretty efficient.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I shared all the results I have. I noticed, that is all. Note that I am not talking about their shooting scores, but simply how long it takes to run the shooter, from make ready to range is clear. bagging and unbagging takes time, as does chasing down magazines that are generally not on the belt.

And to be fair, i am talking about rimfire rifles. We have had exactly zero shooters show up with PCC's.

Can't you just unbag in the safe area, walk muzzle up to the start position, and wait until told to make ready while everyone is scoring the last shooter?

Then after ULSC walk muzzle up to the safe area and bag the rifle while others begin scoring?

This is what we've done at the rifle matches I've attended and it seems pretty efficient.

LMAO

So you are either breaking the 180 or pointing your gat down range!

You guys win!

Let's do this!!!!!

Edited January 26, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Let's put everything on the table

I love it.

The Phoenix of increased participation will save us all!! ?

Edited January 26, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[AWLAZS]

I shared all the results I have. I noticed, that is all. Note that I am not talking about their shooting scores, but simply how long it takes to run the shooter, from make ready to range is clear. bagging and unbagging takes time, as does chasing down magazines that are generally not on the belt.

And to be fair, i am talking about rimfire rifles. We have had exactly zero shooters show up with PCC's.

Can't you just unbag in the safe area, walk muzzle up to the start position, and wait until told to make ready while everyone is scoring the last shooter?

Then after ULSC walk muzzle up to the safe area and bag the rifle while others begin scoring?

This is what we've done at the rifle matches I've attended and it seems pretty efficient.

IT a 10 min walk from the safe area to the pits.

[Nimitz]

I shot over 20 level 1, 2 state championships & the Nationals last year + I run our monthly SC match & have never seen anything for rimfire other than the shooter comes to the box with their firearm encased (a couple actually have holsters) ...

[DocMedic]

5.2.3 Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their long guns:

5.2.3.1 Detachable magazines removed.

5.2.3.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

5.2.3.3 Unbagged long guns must be carried, shouldered or slung from the shoulder with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

5.2.3.4 Long guns may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.

5.2.3.5 Transporting non preloaded long guns from the staging area to the start position and back from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle vertically upwards with the bolt locked open or closed on a chamber safety flag

Lets not speculate, the rules already exist within USPSA.

[d_striker]

5.2.3 Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their long guns:

5.2.3.1 Detachable magazines removed.

5.2.3.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

5.2.3.3 Unbagged long guns must be carried, shouldered or slung from the shoulder with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

5.2.3.4 Long guns may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.

5.2.3.5 Transporting non preloaded long guns from the staging area to the start position and back from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle vertically upwards with the bolt locked open or closed on a chamber safety flag

Lets not speculate, the rules already exist within USPSA.

USPSA Multi-Gun rules....

As a certified RO am I expected to learn another rulebook for the 4 people that want to run PCC's at the regular handgun match?

[gng4life]

D_striker, it sounds like it will be an appendix, just like the other divisions.

Sent from the range

[Dr Mitch]

Just a few safety rules. Not a big deal.

[Chills1994]

5.2.3 Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their long guns:

5.2.3.1 Detachable magazines removed.

5.2.3.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

5.2.3.3 Unbagged long guns must be carried, shouldered or slung from the shoulder with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

5.2.3.4 Long guns may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.

5.2.3.5 Transporting non preloaded long guns from the staging area to the start position and back from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle vertically upwards with the bolt locked open or closed on a chamber safety flag

Lets not speculate, the rules already exist within USPSA.

USPSA Multi-Gun rules....

As a certified RO am I expected to learn another rulebook for the 4 people that want to run PCC's at the regular handgun match?

I am really becoming:

by pointing this out all the time, butttntttttttttttt....there is no requirement for Level I matches to have certified RO's.

[r01]

I shared all the results I have. I noticed, that is all. Note that I am not talking about their shooting scores, but simply how long it takes to run the shooter, from make ready to range is clear. bagging and unbagging takes time, as does chasing down magazines that are generally not on the belt.

And to be fair, i am talking about rimfire rifles. We have had exactly zero shooters show up with PCC's.

Can't you just unbag in the safe area, walk muzzle up to the start position, and wait until told to make ready while everyone is scoring the last shooter?

Then after ULSC walk muzzle up to the safe area and bag the rifle while others begin scoring?

This is what we've done at the rifle matches I've attended and it seems pretty efficient.

IT a 10 min walk from the safe area to the pits.

Guess I'm just used to having a table at every bay that is the safe area.