Poorly adjusted popper gets shot down.

[bret]

This is a good example of knowing the rules as a competitor will improve your match experience and performance. Many shooters don't realize that they can request that a popper be calibrated before they shoot the stage. If you observe other shooters hitting a piece of steel with solid hits in the calibration zone and its not going down but the shooters hammer it down with multiple shots, then simply call for the steel to be calibrated before you shoot the stage.

As a competitor I have only had to call for a calibration prior to shooting the stage twice out of a crap ton of matches I have attended. But in both instances the steel failed calibration and needed to be readjusted.

As a Match Director or Range Master I do my best to ensure that the steel is adjusted properly and set it up so it won't require adjustment throughout the match. Proactively having all of the steel shot with calibration ammo in the morning and at lunch break on each day of the match goes a long way in maintaining proper calibration. Then placing heavy poppers on a small sheet of plywood works wonders in keeping it from digging into the dirt and requiring repeated adjustment to keep it calibrated properly.

Most informative and best comment on this post.

Thank you

[Sarge]

OOPS

Edited November 3, 2015 by Sarge

[Sarge]

I've shot poppers so light that a near miss caused enough pressure drop passing by to activate it......

That's some lightly set steel!

[motosapiens]

A rule, eh?

Is this kinda like the zero tolerance policies in place at many schools where little Timmy can't chew his pop tart into the shape of a gun?

I guess its easier to just blindly follow rules than to apply some "common sense".

Like is said, I agreed with vlad and want to do the same thing but there just isn't a "common sense" rule for us to use.

From the OP's description the pooply set popper was just one of many failures in this instance.

At Nationals there was a complaint about a piece of steel, the shooter took a couple of shots on it and it fell, they complained the CRO looked at it, said it was OK.

A couple shooters later one good hit and it didn't fall, it was in the calibration area and they called for a recalibration, it didn't fall so they got a reshoot.

Now every shooter before her that didn't like how they did wanted a reshoot.

They were not given a reshoot because they shot the steel and it fell when they shot.

I haven't been shooting long but only have seen 2 calibration checks work out in favor of the shooter.

exactly how it should work.

unless the steel is obviously broken and the RO and RM know it.

[Chills1994]

Maybe negligence, or stupidity, on the RM/RO's part for knowingly letting shooters run on a defective popper, but not fraud. Won't that involve criminal intent? However, I think if a great number of shooters had the same issue, they should have tossed the stage. By the way, did you OP's ammo make the power floor during chrono? Here's the deal on calibration, if you only shoot it with known 125 PF ammo, it could be set to allot less than that, maybe 80 or 90? So now low hits would probably activate it. I've shot poppers so light that a near miss caused enough pressure drop passing by to activate it......

Again "fraud" as defined above by dictionary.com ...not a legal/criminal/tort defintion of fraud (factment, inducement, extrinsic, or intrinsic as like defined by Black's).

A breach of confidence...

Your squad shows up to a stage, the CRO (timer stand) is there along with the scorekeeper. The scoresheets get handed over to the scorekeeper. The CRO reads the CoF description. Then everybody gets a few minutes for a walk through.

Then the CRO goes, "OKAY! Who is my first shooter?"

At least to me, that indicates or implies the stage has been properly reset and everything is functioning properly. I have placed my confidence in the match staff that everything is running correctly.

In the case of our OP, both the CRO and RM knew the popper was acting pooply.

In my mind, that is not much different than me selling some 2011 with rib cage cuts down in the classifieds. And knowing that the slide is cracked. However, I don't divulge that the slide is cracked in my ad, nor do I bring it up in any PM's with prospective buyers.

Let's say you buy the gun for $2,000. I ship it to your FFL. You're about to fill out the 4473 on it. You look at it closer and notice the crack in the slide.

Your first thought would be that I duped you, that I (de)frauded you out of your $2,000.

Obviously, I have broken whatever trust or confidence you had placed with me.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Chills1994

[9x45]

Chills, that's why you always want to be the last shooter on the squad. Plus you want to if all the shooter's plan's didn't work......

[Gary Stevens]

If that would have been my stage once the problem was discovered I would either fix it or remove it from the stage and requested another popper. Problem solved.

One year at the Nationals I was assigned a stage that had shoot throughs all over it . I was instructed by the RM to not bother it because the MD had placed the targets where he wanted them.

Believing that the MD really didn't want my stage to be thrown out I fixed all of the shoot through issues. Problem solved.

If you are going to be a CRO do the right thing or hand that responsibility over to someone else.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gary Stevens

[ChuckS]

If you are going to be a CRO do the right thing or hand that responsibility over to someone else.

[sperman]

There are a great number of "CROs" who have a very poor understanding of the rulebook. I'm referring to both people who have passed the CRO class, and those who have been given the title of CRO at a L2 or higher match.

[Sarge]

There are a great number of "CROs" who have a very poor understanding of the rulebook. I'm referring to both people who have passed the CRO class, and those who have been given the title of CRO at a L2 or higher match.

This is true. But it's also true of some RM's and actually even some RMI's are more knowledgable than others in that group. But they are still responsible for their duties. A weak CRO should not be put in charge of a stage in the first place. Like somebody said earlier don't ask staff to return next year if they are not up to the task regardless of title.

There are a few really good RM's in my neck if the woods who make it very clear CRO's are in charge of, and responsible for, their assigned stage.

[sperman]

Yeah. I wasn't going to bring up all the bad range masters.

[Thomas H]

This is a good example of knowing the rules as a competitor will improve your match experience and performance. Many shooters don't realize that they can request that a popper be calibrated before they shoot the stage. If you observe other shooters hitting a piece of steel with solid hits in the calibration zone and its not going down but the shooters hammer it down with multiple shots, then simply call for the steel to be calibrated before you shoot the stage.

Not arguing, but could you point to a rule supporting this? (Specifically that a competitor may request a calibration without having shot the steel in question.)

I'll note that I agree---but if a CRO disagrees and doesn't want to call the RM (which is possible in the case of a CRO who is deliberately ignoring a faulty popper) what rule would you cite for this?

[CHA-LEE]

This is a good example of knowing the rules as a competitor will improve your match experience and performance. Many shooters don't realize that they can request that a popper be calibrated before they shoot the stage. If you observe other shooters hitting a piece of steel with solid hits in the calibration zone and its not going down but the shooters hammer it down with multiple shots, then simply call for the steel to be calibrated before you shoot the stage.

Not arguing, but could you point to a rule supporting this? (Specifically that a competitor may request a calibration without having shot the steel in question.)

I'll note that I agree---but if a CRO disagrees and doesn't want to call the RM (which is possible in the case of a CRO who is deliberately ignoring a faulty popper) what rule would you cite for this?

From Appendix C1......4. The Range Master must arrange for each popper to be calibrated prior to commencement of a match, and whenever required during a match

If the RO or CRO disagrees with the shooters request to recalibrate the popper they can request the RM for a final ruling. This is no different than a shooter escalating any other ruling call to the RM.

[CHA-LEE]

I also want to point out that its not the shooters fault for delaying the match/stage by calling for a proactive calibration of a popper. If the RO's were managing their stage properly then the delay wouldn't happen in the first place. Its the lazy RO's not maintaining their stage properly causing the delay. The RO's really don't have a leg to stand on in refusing the proactive calibration of a popper that has functioned questionably for other shooters. The malfunction isn't going to magically go away on its own.

[Gary Stevens]

This is a good example of knowing the rules as a competitor will improve your match experience and performance. Many shooters don't realize that they can request that a popper be calibrated before they shoot the stage. If you observe other shooters hitting a piece of steel with solid hits in the calibration zone and its not going down but the shooters hammer it down with multiple shots, then simply call for the steel to be calibrated before you shoot the stage.

Not arguing, but could you point to a rule supporting this? (Specifically that a competitor may request a calibration without having shot the steel in question.)

I'll note that I agree---but if a CRO disagrees and doesn't want to call the RM (which is possible in the case of a CRO who is deliberately ignoring a faulty popper) what rule would you cite for this?

I would cite 11.1.2 that requires challenges to be made prior to shooting the course of fire. While popper calibration is not specifically stated, I think the rule is broad enough to cover it.

[Thomas H]

This is a good example of knowing the rules as a competitor will improve your match experience and performance. Many shooters don't realize that they can request that a popper be calibrated before they shoot the stage. If you observe other shooters hitting a piece of steel with solid hits in the calibration zone and its not going down but the shooters hammer it down with multiple shots, then simply call for the steel to be calibrated before you shoot the stage.

Not arguing, but could you point to a rule supporting this? (Specifically that a competitor may request a calibration without having shot the steel in question.)

I'll note that I agree---but if a CRO disagrees and doesn't want to call the RM (which is possible in the case of a CRO who is deliberately ignoring a faulty popper) what rule would you cite for this?

I would cite 11.1.2 that requires challenges to be made prior to shooting the course of fire. While popper calibration is not specifically stated, I think the rule is broad enough to cover it.

Ah. That's what I needed. Thanks!

[ima45dv8]

This is a good example of knowing the rules as a competitor will improve your match experience and performance. Many shooters don't realize that they can request that a popper be calibrated before they shoot the stage. If you observe other shooters hitting a piece of steel with solid hits in the calibration zone and its not going down but the shooters hammer it down with multiple shots, then simply call for the steel to be calibrated before you shoot the stage.

Not arguing, but could you point to a rule supporting this? (Specifically that a competitor may request a calibration without having shot the steel in question.)

I'll note that I agree---but if a CRO disagrees and doesn't want to call the RM (which is possible in the case of a CRO who is deliberately ignoring a faulty popper) what rule would you cite for this?

I would cite 11.1.2 that requires challenges to be made prior to shooting the course of fire. While popper calibration is not specifically stated, I think the rule is broad enough to cover it.

Sorry I'm late to the party on this (a rare day off and trying to catch up on some reading), but wouldn't 4.3.1.5, item 3 take precedence?

4.3.1.5

{snip}

All Poppers shall follow the guidelines below:

1. That a minimum of 50% of the calibration zone be available at some point in the COF.

2. That the calibration will be done from a point on the COF where the calibration zone is available, closest to where the contested shot was fired.

3. Visible evidence of a hit must be present to calibrate the popper. If no evidence is present, the request for calibration shall be denied. (emphasis added)

I've had requests to challenge the calibration of poppers from people who winged a couple of fast shots without really trying to get a hit (they were far away, and the HF calculations seemed to support the idea). After inspecting the popper(s) in question and finding no evidence the steel had been hit, I denied the requests, scored the appropriate Mikes and moved on, per the above rule.

Am I missing something that requires a verification of the calibration before the stage is shot just because someone requests it?

**I always advise ROs/CROs to maintain their steel as needed throughout a match. It only takes a second to knuckle-check them during reset. I'm not looking to screw anyone out of their best chance at a CoF.

[Gary Stevens]

Prior to shooting at it there would be no hit. Perhaps I am once again confused.

[Sarge]

Prior to shooting at it there would be no hit.

Thanks captain obvious! Bwahaha

[ima45dv8]

Prior to shooting at it there would be no hit.

Right. No hit, no challenge.

Perhaps I am once again confused.

I doubt it!

[sperman]

I'm pretty sure there is a thread on here from nationals a few years ago. A shooter asked for calibration before they shot, and the CRO said no. A few shooters later another shooter had an issue with the same popper, and it failed calibration. I think the RM ended up giving the entire squad a reshoot on that stage.

Let me do a little searching.

[sperman]

I thought Troy commented in this thread, but he didn't. Maybe he talked about it in Front Sight?

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=182188&p=2013137

[Blueridge]

A little back story:

USPSA Level II

Shooter engages target multiple times. The base of the popper had became loose and was rocking. The shooter shot, pause, shot again, pause, shot several more times. then finally rapid fired the target to get it to fall over. It was an activator for the CoF so he kept shooting at it, to get it to activate the drop turner and swinger.

All hits were in the calibration zone. The shooter also knows the calibration rules and knocked it over anyway.

Upon ULASC the RO said. "That target has been screwed up all morning. I would have already fixed it but the RM told all staff to not mess with the poppers and wait for a shooter to call for calibration so I have left it alone. You should have stopped It is really screwed up". The shooter replied. "Why have you not called the RM for calibration?". The RO "No one asked"

The shooter told the RO, he would like to speak to the RM, and the Rangemaster was called. The Rangemaster decided on his own he would shoot the target for giggles. The Rangemaster hitting the calibration zone failed to knock it over with 3 separate adjustments. Rangemaster offered a reshoot. This upset people because the shooter shot down the target.

The RM offered the reshoot. He cited C1(7) "In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test....." He said " the popper had a known problem and without even shooting the popper myself, the RO already admitted the activator (popper) was not operating correctly. The RO should not have started the shooter until he believed the stage and all of its props and activators are working properly." He failed to contact me long ago when he first believed the popper was out of calibration".

Now, what say you all? Reshoot or No Reshoot

Here is my take on this post. The shooter decided to keep shooting the popper and it finally went down. The shooter proceeded to finish the stage. At that point the stage is over and no decision on a reshoot needs to be made. Issue over.

Now from the Monday morning quarterback viewpoint.......The RM, CRO, and any RO's that ran the stage SHOULD have made sure that any popper that they KNEW were not properly calibrated was properly ready for the shooters coming to the stage. Until the shooter was told that the problem with the popper was already known by the RO and RM, there was no known issue to the shooter of the failure of either to handle a pre-existing problem. With what the shooter knew at the beginning of the stage engagement, the shooter made their decision to shoot the popper down. Thus the shooter intentionally acted to negate their opportunity to reshoot the stage by shooting the popper until it went down. If the shooter knew that they were striking the popper in the "calibration zone", then they had enough information to move on and decide to complete the stage and then call for calibration check.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Blueridge

[motosapiens]

Am I missing something that requires a verification of the calibration before the stage is shot just because someone requests it?

I don't know of a rule that *requires* calbration just because someone requests it, but the best RM's I know (such as Carl Schmidt) told us to just call him if a competitor requested it, because it came up on my stage at A1 this year.

[motosapiens]

Here is my take on this post. The shooter decided to keep shooting the popper and it finally went down. The shooter proceeded to finish the stage. At that point the stage is over and no decision on a reshoot needs to be made. Issue over.

Now from the Monday morning quarterback viewpoint.......The RM, CRO, and any RO's that ran the stage SHOULD have made sure that any popper that they KNEW were not properly calibrated was properly ready for the shooters coming to the stage. Until the shooter was told that the problem with the popper was already known by the RO and RM, there was no known issue to the shooter of the failure of either to handle a pre-existing problem. With what the shooter knew at the beginning of the stage engagement, the shooter made their decision to shoot the popper down. Thus the shooter intentionally acted to negate their opportunity to reshoot the stage by shooting the popper until it went down. If the shooter knew that they were striking the popper in the "calibration zone", then they had enough information to decide to complete the stage and then call for calibration check.

those are all reasonable points, but if it's clear to the RO's and RM that the popper is screwed up, it's still ok to admit that, fix it , and give a reshoot instead of screwing someone over for an RO mistake. IMHO, the rules should never be used as an excuse to screw someone over for poor stage setup/maintenance or poor RO performance.

Edited December 12, 2015 by motosapiens