Best Training For Stage Breakdown In Uspsa

[vincent]

As a Master class IDPA shooter with plenty of major match experience, I have a pretty good grasp on shooting techniques like stance, grip, reloads, shooting on the move, etc.

However my ignorance of the "game of USPSA" is holding me back. I feel like I am frequently being beaten by not shooting stages in the fastest way vs. not having the skills to shoot the stage fast.

[Edited to make make sure that everyone understands I'm interested in training on how to shoot efficiently, determine the optimal stage plan (even if it is above my skill level), determine the best stage plan for my level, etc. - not finding stage loopholes or "breaking" stages.]

Is there a book, tape, training class, etc. that concentrates on the "game of USPSA" that anyone can recommend?

Thanks,

-Vincent

Edited March 22, 2005 by vincent

[schoonie]

The word I hear is that Todd Jarrett is the man for breaking down a course of fire.

[Catfish]

Vinny - I'm betting that what you are after isn't going to be found in a book. It'll be found at the range, shooting as many matches as possible.

You're a great shooter, it'll come!!

Derrick

[short_round]

This thing that helped me the most was becoming an RO and setting up stages for the local matches. When the safety committe walks through and tears your stage apart you learn a lot (assuming you have a good safety committee). When you have to rearrange everything with people waiting to get the match started you become motivated not to make the same mistakes.

The good news ... when you practice really good course design you know what to look for. When someone poorly sets up a stage, you will be able to recognize it and really take advantage of it.

Other than that, I pick up tricks following the veterans around. Some of them are pretty sneaky.

To answer your question though, I don't know any book, tape, or training class.

[shred]

There's "gaming" and there's "optimizing", for lack of better terms. To many they are the same, but there's a difference--

Gaming is where you spend all day poking around the COF looking for some loophole to shoot through that will save you from having to run all the way to the right like the stage designer wanted you to or some such wackiness. Usually this is caused by poorly debugged or incomplete stage designs. Opportunities abound at local matches, but are much less at major matches.

Notably, the top dogs spend little time trying to 'game' stages and put almost all their effort onto shooting efficiently (this is something I just noticed, although it's been blindingly obvious for ages)

Optimizing is where you break down the stage and pick the best way to shoot the available targets in an efficient manner. Maybe you take a step out of line to get a target shootable sooner or maybe you choose to stand just here so you don't have to move to hit all three targets and so on. Working this will probably serve you much better in the long term. There isn't a whole lot of educational material on this, though in classes almost all the instructors will go through breaking down a stage to find the best path.

[Loves2Shoot]

Ditto to what Shred said. Knowing how long it takes you do do things helps, then you just add up the math and decide which way is fastest for you. Poking holes in stages is dumb, or course if there is a big enough hole you have to end up doing it anyway, but it is still dumb. Course designers who try to get too "tricky" are the ones who have their stages blown apart.

As far as where to learn it. Just start looking it from all the angles.

[vincent]

To use your terms I'm looking for training on "optimizing".

I have to believe there is someone out there teaching this stuff.

I wasted years using the trial and error method climbing the ladder in IDPA and I don't want to make that mistake again.

[Storm]

I have to believe there is someone out there teaching this stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think any GM can teach this stuff. I've taken a class with Jerry Barnhart. I know he spends quite a bit of time in his classes teaching various efficiencies. Todd Jarrett probably does too.

Since you're looking for specific skills, it might be a good idea to do a one-on-one class with someone. That way you can concentrate on the specific skills you want to learn.

Shred and L2S have already commented that you need to know how long it takes "you" to do different things. Jerry stresses that. What are your splits/transtions on targets at various distances (both to the target & between targets)? How long does it take you to move from point A to B? When you can estimate that, you're way ahead. You can evaluate the alternatives. He also stresses timing moving targets. That way you know exactly how many shots you can get off between shooting the activator and shooting the moving target. Then you can decide if you can shoot another target or two while waiting for the mover to appear. Otherwise, you're just guessing.

One efficiency BE taught me is to remember that your goal is to get the gun to the next target. Thinking about it from that perspective helps me. Instead of thinking about where I want to be, where do I want the gun to be.

[Ron Ankeny]

Guys like Ron Avery teach this stuff. Unfortunately, unless you get some private tutoring I think the type of thing you are looking for will be in an "advanced" course. As you already know, shooting while you are leaving and shooting as soon as you get there are key elements. Knowing the array and the order is also important, do you want to shoot low first, then high, tough shots then easy ones, etc.

Ken Kwait made a post about a course of fire that I encountered at the Mile High and he makes a lot of sense. He remarked something to the effect of shooting a course the way it "flows" the best. There's a lot of merit to that notion. Watch the really good shooters at work and it seems they are fluid and always shooting unless there is a lot of ground to cover.

[Al Capizzo]

Vincent,

I'm not sure that what you're looking for can be taught in a class. You already know if you can shoot fast enough to shoot an activator, then one or two paper targets before getting that swinger or clam shell target. If I'm understanding your question, the answer is going to be very stage specific. And I think the way to learn this is to get on a squad with the some GOOD master class shooters, especially at major matches. I was on a squad with Shred this weekend at the Double Tap Match and I learned a lot from him saying, "watch for this", or "there's two ways to try this one". Another shooter in our area who's great at this is Ken Hicks. After a while, I think you can learn to look for the things these shooters are looking for.

Al

[Chriss Grube]

The biggest difference in IDPA and USPSA is the course design. IDPA is pretty much dope on a rope type where you are told where to go and how to shoot the arrays. USPSA is generally all up to you. Gaming the stage is half the challenge. TJ and Matt both teach breaking down a stage. The thing to remember is there is no best way on a lot of courses. There were several stages at Nats that were shot 5-10 different ways just by the Super squad. They all were within 1 second of each other. It all comes down to what you are good at and the division you are shooting in. Plans for open will be different than limited and way off from prod. Experience is the key.

[MikeFoley]

My stage breakdown skills improved a little after Dave Sevigny's class in OCT. I am anxious to see how this helps during the big matches this year.

[XRe]

Breaking a stage down, blocking it out, etc, I learned a good deal from reading on the IPSC mailing list, and in Matt's book (when it first came out), and working w/ some of the local top shooters. Learned a little more from Matt in a class. A lot of it, I had to just learn for myself what worked best for me - for instance, I discovered that, if I have a choice, it's better for me to reload the gun going *into* a strange-ish position (kneeling, prone, etc), than getting out of it.

As others have said, it helps to know what you're capable of - especially w/ moving targets, etc. It'll help you figure out an engagement order that doesn't waste any time.

I'd really like to pick one (or more) of the masters' brains on breaking down complicated mover stages. There was a field course w/ (IIRC) 4 moving targets at the '98 Area 6 that blew my mind - when Todd shot it, he picked out an order that never had him waiting, and each target appeared right as he was indexing to it. It flowed perfectly, and was a thing of beauty to watch. He was the only one that shot it that way, and won the stage by a good amount.

[sfinney]

Ditto to all the above.... most will come with time. Lord knows I still have alot to learn, regarding stage dissecton, and efficient movement

At your local matches find a GM and get on his squad.... follow him around and pick his brain. Most will be more than helpful to discuss how they want to shoot a stage, and why.... and just watching them helps to.

As to a formal class, you'll have to find an Advanced class probably from one of the teaching GM's to get the kinda dope you're talking about..... most teach shooting and gun handling skills.... although some will incorporate a club match into the end of the training, and break down your performance per stage on the last day.

And some will customize the level of the class, or what is taught, depending on student request, for a price.... the more custom and small, the more $$ I'm sure.

I've only taken one formal class, from Steve Broom last summer, and it was the best $ I've spent in shooting so far. There has been some discussion by Robert at the DoubleTap Ranch on trying to get Max and Travis to come in sometime this year for one of their training sessions.... probably targeted at a semi-advanced level.... now that his big match is over maybe we can talk him into trying to set a class up. Will have to see if their shedule permits I guess.

[ErikW]

Get to the shooting. Eliminate extra steps. Get to the shooting. Eliminate extra motion. Get to the shooting. Shoot on the move. Get to the shooting.

[sfinney]

Oh, for what its worth (and I'm no GM so take all of this with a grain of salt) - one thing I've noticed watching the shooters with IDPA history the last few months, and last weekend especially..... you guys are very accurate. Which is a great foundation to build on for IPSC.

And contrary to what some might think at first glance (it sure took me a while to learn this) USPSA is not all about speed, either. Some stages demand high accuracy, and med speed for a high hit factor, while others demand reasonable accuracy and high SPEED for a high hit factor..... thats part of determining how to breakdown a stage.

My point is that I see the IDPA oriented shooters taking many more make up shots to turn a C into an A, and even taking extra time making sure they are getting all A's, to the extent its nibbling away at the timer. If its a speed stage, take the C and go. 90% A's is a good goal I'm told, as a balance of speed/accuracy. Always aim for A's, but a few C's are ok - if the time is fast enough.

But like I said, I'm no GM, so don't listen to me.

Oh, and buy Brain Enos' book, if you haven't already.

[tightloop]

Vinny

You are at the point of knowing your own abilities to be able to walk thru a stage and know the best way for You to shoot it...always shoot within your strengths if possible...maximize the things you do well, and minize the ones you don't do well...

Watch guys like Benny Hill who game hell out of everything they shoot...but temper your aggressiveness with the thought that the fastest way may not be the best way...Been there and done that myself...

What it came down to for me was knowing my strengths as a shooter, what I could do on demand and what I could not....

Efficient movement and transitions are the key to breaking a stage open...

good luck with it...

Wink

[Bear1142]

Vincent,

The easiest way to find what you're looking for is to use your local talent. Try to squad with a local GM or M shooting your same division. When you break down a stage and devise your shooting plan, compare it with the GM. Where there are differences, ask him why he's shooting it that way. At the higher levels, the top shooters will always have a very specific reason for why they are shooting an array in that particular order. Try to understand their logic for approaching that particular array and apply it to other stages. Eventually, you'll start to develop an overall philosophy that works for you on how to engage certain targets or arrays.

Here are a few general examples (that will no doubt be "debated") of what I'm talking about. If you want to know why I believe in these guidelines, PM me and we'll talk. These are just a few, but is this what you're looking for?

1- I generally shoot faster going left to right in my target engagment sequence.

2- I generally try to start with the tougher shots/targets first and work from the most difficult shot to the easiest shot.

3- Try to engage other targets while waiting for activators of swingers to operate.

4- I try to engage targets entering a box, not leaving a box

Erik

[IPSCDRL]

Vincent. Jerry Barnhart's "Burner series" of videos has one section completely devoted to breaking down USPSA/IPSC stages. Check his web site. I have the full 10 tape set but you can buy just the tape that covers this subject. See the burner page for information.

[dirtypool40]

What they said....you're getting a lot of good advice here.

I came out of IDPA a "Master" and qualified in USPSA as a "B". Local "A" level shooters probably have similiar skills to you, but probably know more about getting around a course efficiently. I got beat for a long time by just the things you are talking about...options and when to take which ones.

My two cents;

Try to run through the stage like you have a flashlight with limited time left on the batteries. What's the most efficient way to cover all the targets, don't cover any more than once, and try to minimize your waiting. Practice shooting right to left. Most field courses move to the right and there fore present targets right to left. Think of it as "pie-ing the corner" at warp speed, literally shoot 'em as you see 'em.

I used to like watching pool on TV back when I was playing seriously, to see if I could figure out where the pro would move the rock and why. I also learned that they don't make great shots all the time, and they like to simplify things when possible. Same goes for IPSC.

Shoot matches with A-G class shooters and watch how they do things like breaking down a stage, or even one array. Ask questions, most USPSA shooters are good guys open to helping a shooter along.

IDPA is a lot like going to the driving range where they tell you that you have to hit a 6 iron 92 yards with your left shoe untied. OK, doable, but not a lot of creativity.

USPSA is more like a scratch golfer facing a tough hole with options. Sometimes, you lay up and take the par, sometimes you go for the eagle and risk the bogey.

[eric nielsen]

One way is to buy a copy of Eric Grauffel's 2002 season VHS and watch it over & over again. He has a new DVD of 2004 season for sale too, haven't got mine yet. The Dollar is worth about .75 Euro now, so it's not cheap. But going to matches isn't cheap either.

The courses EG shoots in the vhs have a lot more variety than any uspsa tournament that I can think of. There's also so many camera angles that you can frequently see how difficult the targets are. Keep watching & you'll notice there ARE shooting arrays where he stops, plants, and shoots - although the overall impression is that he never stops moving & he's always in a flow.

Saul Kirsch's DVD of the 2003 uspsa Open is really well done too, but the courses are primarily follow-the-leader. If you see one guy do a stage different he's frequently NOT in the top 5 on that stage. EG won that with just dogged determination to shoot A's.

[twix]

Steve Anderson's website has some interesting stuff on breaking down a stage. He's on the Dealer Forum here.

His book on dry firing is really good too.

[Dalmas]

I fully agree with Short Round. I've only been on the IPSC scene for 2 years and after a few months I started designing and building stages - great way of learning how to pick a stage apart. Another splendid way is to RO a big match and watch the top dogs shoot, then don't be afraid to ask them why they shot the way they did...

[Mistral404]

You might want to call Matt B. He might have a new DVD coming out that might provide some awesome insight into it.

If you get a chance to see Max or Travis do a walkthru, you will can learn a lot by emulating their behavior.

[Loves2Shoot]

If you get a chance to see Max or Travis do a walkthru, you will can learn a lot by emulating their behavior.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just make sure you ONLY do the things you can do, those guys (like most M+ shooters) can do things ways you wouldn't even want to try. Know your limits and don't do thing "just 'cause" the local super squad does it that way.