Limited Major vs Minor

[Red Ryder]

I think the general concensus is that there is no benefit to shooting Limited in MINOR. We should change that. We should make shooting Limited minor as competitive at shooting Limited major. We should allow people shooting Limited minor to have 155mm mags or something like that to even it out. I think most new shooters benefit the most starting out shooting Limited by eliminating the all mag change drama. I am sure Taran and Dawson would love to sell a bunch of new extended base pads.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Red Ryder

[sbo76]

Shoot alphas and have fun. Itc cheaper, mags hold more rounds so alternate stage plans are possible, less recoil ect.

[swearengen]

Why should USPSA do that? New shooters will not be competitive in general no matter what the rules are (unless they are some sort of phenom but then shooting more alphas will not be a problem for that person) . Minor already has the advantage of a few more rounds and less recoil.

[Gooldylocks]

Limited minor can definitely be competitive, if you are up to the challenge. There are a few guys locally that can give your average limited major shooter a serious whooping. More bullets, less recoil, and a couple of very accurate shooters.

Alphas all score the same. Shoot alphas really fast, win.

[Red Ryder]

If it was truly competetive then the super squaders would be shooting minor.

[Red Ryder]

I think the mag capacity needs to be closer to 26 or 27 to make limited minor competetive. Limited minor in revolver and SS gives approx a 30% advantage in round count.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Red Ryder

[Beastly]

I think Lim Minor is generally accepted to be at a disadvantage relative to Lim Major, the question is why is this accepted and ignored.

Document whether shooters were scored at major/minor at the least.

I would suggest tuning the difference somehow so that the major/minor difference is more or less a wash.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Beastly

[Punished]

Why should we give benefits to shooting minor? I've always felt minor is the way they have it because you are penalized for shooting a smaller caliber, which already has less recoil and more rounds in the mag. Why go and give more benefits? The rules are there for larger caliber guns, if you change the rules to allow minor guns to have the same or more competitive level as a major gun, then I'd see a swing to shooting minor and the major guns drop off.

If we dont want any difference in shooting a Major or Minor gun, then get rid of the difference in scoring. Shoot any caliber you want, they all score the same......... we can then move on to every other division and drop minor from them and everyone will be competing with 9mm by the year 2020. Thus ending the argument of what is better 9mm or 40sw.

[Beastly]

Why should we give benefits to shooting minor? I've always felt minor is the way they have it because you are penalized for shooting a smaller caliber, which already has less recoil and more rounds in the mag. Why go and give more benefits? The rules are there for larger caliber guns, if you change the rules to allow minor guns to have the same or more competitive level as a major gun, then I'd see a swing to shooting minor and the major guns drop off.

If we dont want any difference in shooting a Major or Minor gun, then get rid of the difference in scoring. Shoot any caliber you want, they all score the same......... we can then move on to every other division and drop minor from them and everyone will be competing with 9mm by the year 2020. Thus ending the argument of what is better 9mm or 40sw.

I'm suggesting that major / minor should be a wash for equivalently skilled higher level competitors, not that there be advantage either way. Dropping major scoring entirely seems too big a swing towards making minor an advantage.

Why should we give an advantage to shooting less accurately because of power factor? I know that this is a sport, but is generally accepted that shot placement trumps caliber and/or power factor.

Also, not suggesting changes that would make anyone want to give up their current major guns... Why should Lim Minor be an inherently poor choice from a competitive perspective?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Beastly

[ltdmstr]

So basically you want to render the V in the DVC meaningless?

[sundevil827]

I had to double check, I thought this was the USPSA forum, not the IDPA forum?

Why is there a need to "right" every "wrong" in terms of scoring, or a need to make everything equal?

I think new shooters benefit the most from shooting production, and learning basic skills like how to reload, how to aim, and why shooting accurately should matter. I think something different than you, so that means it's wrong? Sure, Limited minor is an easy way for a person to be introduced to the sport, but I also don't see how a brand new shooter is aiming to be competitive in that first match anyhow. It's about having some fun, and being introduced to the sport in a safe, and enjoyable manner. Someone getting competitive requires a different mindset.

Let's invent more issues, so we can create some solutions! Seriously.....USPSA has enough other things to work on that this is fairly silly. I honestly don't think it does a thing to make the sport more attractive to a new shooter if that was the reason for the "solution" that was proposed.

Fix the stuff that needs fixing!

[DHwreckage]

Why not just allow 9mm major in limited?

[teros135]

There's already a Division for 9mm Major.

[AJE]

I think Lim Minor is generally accepted to be at a disadvantage relative to Lim Major, the question is why is this accepted and ignored.

Document whether shooters were scored at major/minor at the least.

I would suggest tuning the difference somehow so that the major/minor difference is more or less a wash.

Am I wrong in that it's supposed to be a disadvantage?

You want more points, you have to give up a little capacity and deal with a little extra recoil... which is a technique issue and really not all that big of a deal.

When I switch back and forth between Production and Limited, the recoil isn't the biggest difference to me... it's the weight of the magazines if I had to pick one thing.

[PatJones]

I think there is a misconception, that you can hose away at the targets with major scoring. I started this game shooting minor, and made the same mistake when I started shooting major in single stack this spring.

You need to aim with the same care when shooting major as when you shoot minor. The difference is in distant or partial targets. On those you can place you shots into the middle of the available target and move on, this is the time savings.

[PatJones]

I'm 45 and starting to notice changes in my vision. I'm sure I could compensate by making changes to my waistline.

Edited October 5, 2015 by PatJones

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Major 40 mags will hold 21 rounds and minor 9mm will hold 24 rounds. Take a look at the single stack nationals to see where the minor scoring guys are. The best I ever saw was 5th place by BJ Norris a couple of years ago. Some of the ladies are shooting major but do not do as well as those shooting minor. I say shoot minor if you want but don't change the rules. Thanks, Eric

[Red Ryder]

I am just trying to say that someone who choses to shoot Limited minor is at a disadvantage. We should just shrink the disadvantage by increasing the mag capacity to make Limited minor less of a disadvantage. I am not suggesting that anything else change.

Revolver major = 6

Revolver minor = 8

34% capacity advantage

Single Stack major = 8

Single Stack Minor = 10

25% capacity advantage

Limited Major = 21

Limited minor = 24 if you're lucky

15% capacity advantage

I think we should increase the capacity advantage closer to 25% or 26 to 27 rounds. To do this, the mag would have to go beyond 140mm. Someone would have to make a bigger aftermarket base pad to accompany the extra rounds.

I think this would make the Limited minor disadvantage shrink. The minor scoring should not change. The point is that shooting Limited minor shouldn't be such a disadvantage that very few people do it. We should even out the pros and cons to make both major and minor competitive.

[al503]

Limited Major = 21

Limited minor = 24 if you're lucky

15% capacity advantage

There are 22 round .40 mags and 24 round 9mm magazines. The capacity advantage would only be just over 9%.

[BritinUSA]

With a maximum of eight rounds permissible from a single shooting location, a competitor with a 21 round magazine would need to reload after two positions while a competitor with 24 would have to reload after three positions. The exact number of rounds in each magazine does not necessarily indicate an advantage, instead it's the division of that number by the maximum number of rounds from any single position that is more relevant.

One reason that many revolver shooters may have moved to eight rounds is that there is no longer a requirement to reload in the middle of an 8 shot array, thereby saving a couple of seconds on a reload.

Single stack already has a minimum of 8 rounds in a magazine so a reload is generally required after every shooting position, because single stack minor only offers an additional two rounds then they too need a reload after every position as there is likely to be more than one target at the next location.

This is why minor in SS and Limited does not fair well, it's more to do with arrays than actual capacity.

[Acclaym]

I am just trying to say that someone who choses to shoot Limited minor is at a disadvantage.

It makes perfect sense... The minor shooters have a disadvantage in points BECAUSE they have the advantage in recoil and capacity... It's very simple and logical.

[9x45]

I shoot Limited minor, 23 plus one to start. But I don't think it's really a capacity issue, there is hardly a stage where you don't have plenty of time to change mags between arrays. I don't ever remember a stage in the last 15 years where you had a standing reload for Limited. It's set up for 8 rounds per. If your'e moving, your'e reloading. It's really all about the V, and the USPSA board is not going to change that. They just now let .357SIG as major in Limited. Course it's the same capacity as 40S&W.....

Edited October 5, 2015 by 9x45

[Red Ryder]

With a maximum of eight rounds permissible from a single shooting location, a competitor with a 21 round magazine would need to reload after two positions while a competitor with 24 would have to reload after three positions. The exact number of rounds in each magazine does not necessarily indicate an advantage, instead it's the division of that number by the maximum number of rounds from any single position that is more relevant.

One reason that many revolver shooters may have moved to eight rounds is that there is no longer a requirement to reload in the middle of an 8 shot array, thereby saving a couple of seconds on a reload.

Single stack already has a minimum of 8 rounds in a magazine so a reload is generally required after every shooting position, because single stack minor only offers an additional two rounds then they too need a reload after every position as there is likely to be more than one target at the next location.

This is why minor in SS and Limited does not fair well, it's more to do with arrays than actual capacity.

"No more than 8 rounds REQUIRED" from a location does not mean that there aren't more shots available. There are many stage designs that make more shots available. "permissible" is not the correct word.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Red Ryder

[Red Ryder]

I shoot Limited minor, 23 plus one to start. But I don't think it's really a capacity issue, there is hardly a stage where you don't have plenty of time to change mags between arrays. I don't ever remember a stage in the last 15 years where you had a standing reload for Limited. It's set up for 8 rounds per. If your'e moving, your'e reloading. It's really all about the V, and the USPSA board is not going to change that. They just now let .357SIG as major in Limited. Course it's the same capacity as 40S&W.....

Like I stated above. There are many stages, even at the 2014 nationals, where there were more shots than 8 available from one shooting location. You just can't "require" more than 8.

[Red Ryder]

I shoot Limited minor, 23 plus one to start. But I don't think it's really a capacity issue, there is hardly a stage where you don't have plenty of time to change mags between arrays. I don't ever remember a stage in the last 15 years where you had a standing reload for Limited. It's set up for 8 rounds per. If your'e moving, your'e reloading. It's really all about the V, and the USPSA board is not going to change that. They just now let .357SIG as major in Limited. Course it's the same capacity as 40S&W.....

" If you are moving you are reloading" is good advice for production, not necessarily limited.