Prod/SS - Retrieve mag from front pocket after clearing a double feed

[acpie360]

If a Production or Single Stack shooter stows the mag in his front pocket in order to clear a double feed, can he grab the same mag and insert into the gun after clearing the malfunction(without being bumped to Open)?

[cnote]

Can't quote the rule at the moment, but NO

From beep to HD and holster mags must come from a legal position

There was controversy with a super squad guy some time ago going to a mag in a cargo pocket on pants, fore of aft of hip bone???

Edited August 27, 2015 by cnote

[grapemeister]

Has to be at or behind the hip bone no matter where the mag is stowed, but some hips bones are more forward than others. My 1st mag holder has been questioned in the past by an RO and RM until they felt my hip bones and realized how far forward they are. I've since moved my magazines back further to avoid the controversy.

I think it was Bob, or maybe Neils, if I'm no mistaken, at the World Shoot that caused the controversy by retrieving a mag from a pocket near the front of his 511 pants, but it was deemed to be at the hip bone.

[JAFO]

I'd guess this would cover it.

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty). When stipulations in the WSB require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is allowed. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12, as long as they remain in the hand.

[Sarge]

If a Production or Single Stack shooter stows the mag in his front pocket in order to clear a double feed, can he grab the same mag and insert into the gun after clearing the malfunction(without being bumped to Open)?

No

[terrydoc]

This seems a different situation as we are not talking about starting the CoF with the mag in the front pocket, shooter removes it from gun, places it in pocket , clears malfunction and then replaces it in to gun, not sure where that would be not ok.

Mind you I would probably drop that mag and clear ir and grab a fresh one if I had one.

[teros135]

No, it's not okay. Go back to post #4 and read 5.2.4 again. If it's in a pocket forward of the hip bone, you can't use it. (What's hard about this?)

[Sarge]

No, it's not okay. Go back to post #4 and read 5.2.4 again. If it's in a pocket forward of the hip bone, you can't use it. (What's hard about this?)

While I try to not be so blunt, teros is right. The rule seems to be very very clear on the matter

[revoman]

So if you drop the mag in front of you on the ground while you are kneeling or prone to clear a jam you cannot pick it up and reinsert?

[terrydoc]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

It is NOT a spare it's a mag the guy pulled out of the gun and it is not being carried

Edited August 28, 2015 by terrydoc

[RJH]

This is another one to give a try at nationals and see how it turns out for you. That is the only way to get a definitive answer.

[cnote]

This is another one to give a try at nationals and see how it turns out for you. That is the only way to get a definitive answer.

And there will be $100 on the line for sure

[Sarge]

So if you drop the mag in front of you on the ground while you are kneeling or prone to clear a jam you cannot pick it up and reinsert?

There is a rule allowing retrieving mags from the ground

[GrumpyOne]

So if you drop the mag in front of you on the ground while you are kneeling or prone to clear a jam you cannot pick it up and reinsert?

There is a rule allowing retrieving mags from the ground

Yes, 5.5.2

[Dimitri]

IPSC 2015 Rules

5.2.4 Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loaders should be carried in retention devices specifically designed

for that purpose. Carriage of additional magazines and speed loaders in rear pockets of shorts or trousers is

also approved.

5.5.3 Spare magazines, speed loaders or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the Start Signal
may be retrieved. However, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

5.2.10 In some Divisions (see Appendix D), neither the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor the holster, nor any

allied equipment, can extend forward of the line illustrated in Appendix E2. Any such items a Range Officer

deems not to be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

6.2.5.1 A competitor who fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division after

the Start Signal, will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor’s scores

will not be entered into match results. Competitors already registered in Open Division who fail to

comply with the requirements of Open Division after the Start Signal will not have their scores

entered into match results.

So I guess that if you remove the mag, you either drop it on the ground (and pick it up later), or

Put it back in a mag holder (behind the hip bone), or

Leave it in the front pocket and don't use it until the end of COF (although you still might risk being bumped in Open Divison)

Edit: I understand that the interpetation in IPSC is that there is no problem doing that, since it happened after the start signal.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Dimitri

[Nimitz]

5.2.10 says you can't have something like a magazine forward of your hip bone in Production. It doesn't specific as long as you don't use it it's ok to be there ... so

you have a magazine in a front pocket and although it's not visible it's pretty obvious you have a mag in there. You actually have no intention of using it, it's just where you carry a spare mag. Are you going to get bumped to open for this?

[Dimitri]

For IPSC I would hazard a guess that it will lead to OD, since the rule defines where magazines, etc, should be carried after the start signal. For USPSA I could not say as I don't know the rules well, but I understand that the same applies with the exception of the top up mag or the UASC mag, which can be in a front pocket.

(One might argue the word "should" as a "suggestion", but my opinion is that this should be read in context with the "Carriage of additional magazines and speed loaders in rear pockets of shorts or trousers is also approved.", part of the rule, so it is implied/clear to me that mags in any other part of the body, apart from the ones defined in the rule, is an infraction and leads to OD)

[terrydoc]

In IPSC you can NOT have any mags or speed loaders or equipment forward of the hip bone in any division other than Open regardless if you are not going to use it ( which is the excuse heard around the world), Open Div still has to maintain the 50mm rule also.

[slavex]

If the timer has gone beep you can stuff mags anywhere you want, that's why we can use magnets for mags on tables. Hell you can even stuff one in your mouth, seen it done, after the start signal. However, for a competitor who has removed the mag, put in pocket, so that they can clear a jam, and then reinsert the same mag, it's fine. You guys are reading some rules and ignoring others. USPSA may of course run totally different.

[mickd1]

it only applies up to the start signal, from then on it's freestyle, so in a CoF I happen to remove/drop a magazine i can put it in my front pocket, clear a jam, then re-insert the magazine in the gun and carry on with the cof

[Ming the Merciless]

so you have a magazine in a front pocket and although it's not visible it's pretty obvious you have a mag in there. You actually have no intention of using it, it's just where you carry a spare mag. Are you going to get bumped to open for this?

No, we know you're just happy to see us! said in my best Mae West voice.

[motosapiens]

If the timer has gone beep you can stuff mags anywhere you want, that's why we can use magnets for mags on tables.

you can't use magnets in uspsa production (or SS). Not sure your analogy works.

[terrydoc]

He used the magnet comment in relation to being able to put the mags anywhere after the start signal

[GrumpyOne]

He used the magnet comment in relation to being able to put the mags anywhere after the start signal

Still can't use magnets after the beep in USPSA Production and SS.

[Fuelie777]

If the uspsa competitor places the magazine in a pocket forward of the hip bone under the situation described, they are now in a mag holding device. If they grab it from said pocket, moved to open. Better off dropping the mag on the ground or placing in your holder of choice behind your hip bone.