Santini Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) Just read this on another forum... "Winchester 231 certainly has been hard to get. The plant that makes Winchester powders does not want to make 231 as well as a few other powders. These older technology powders have different chemistry than the new powders and this older chemistry makes it much slower to make powder: basically, you can make about 2.5 times as many pounds of new chemistry powder in the time it takes to make 1 pound of old chemistry powder. During the process of making the old powders, the waste stream created is huge compared to the waste stream of the new chemistry powders. Chemical waste is very expensive to get rid of. So, the plant wants to phase out the old chemistry powders and replace them with new chemistry powders. While they are still making 231, the amount is being reduced and the amount of new powder such as Titegroup and Longshot is being increased. Now, we are kind of stuck in the middle. The market is demanding 231 but the maker is not wanting to produce the powder. The result is, over time, 231 is going to go away. Shooters should begin using other powders as they can. Mike Daly Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants Hodgdon Smokeless Powder IMR Powder Company Winchester Smokeless Propellants GOEX Blackpowder" Edited August 11, 2015 by Santini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dillon Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 After confirming this last week, I checked with Alliant Powder about their venerable line of flake handgun/shotgun powders. They have no plans to discontinue any of their flake powders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobT Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 If true, and I assume it is, this is sad news. W231 has my "go to" powder since the late '70s.... I've got plenty of other options, but I do like 231. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Unique and Power Pistol from Alliant chart a little slower, and I am getting ready to go to those after the 231 is used up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igolfat8 Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I saw an 8lb of 38 and a 4 lb of 231 today at a LGS so its still shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leewongfei Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 This is very sad news indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firewood Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) While not impossible to find, W231 and HP-38 are at best difficult to locate. So they will discontinue an already nearly impossible to find powder. Who will really notice? There is no other industry on this planet that thinks and acts like the smokeless powder industry. At least as far as the domestic consumer market is concerned. Personally I'm not opposed to marketing a new and improved product. I know that some are upset that when their favorite powder leaves the market then they have to reinvent the wheel. This doesn't bother me. What does bother me is the near perfect lack of communications regarding current and future availability of suitable pistol powders. There was a fire in a fluffing machine in the factory that makes the base for Clays. That fire was sometime in 2013. No information from the industry and actually it was about a year before anyone would admit to the incident. Hodgdon told their loyal customers that the line would be back up and powder available in early 2015. Well Hodgdon didn't technically lie because a very small amount to clays made it to the stores in early 2015. But that was it. Now it appears that the base used for clays will be changed and phased out by ADI sometime in the future. I see a little bit of AA#5 available these days online. I know that there are some who are happy about this but for the individual that never used AA#5 it would be crazy to start now now given Westerns lack of concern for their customer base. Lesson learned, if you see a powder you can use, buy it and learn to live with it. Don't get too attached, you will be disappointed at some point. On another forum about two years ago I floated the idea that the powders suppliers were using the (now almost 3 year) powder shortage to clean out their stockrooms, increase prices and eliminate/streamline their offerings. A lot of that forums posters thought I was barking at the moon for suggesting that the list of available powders would be getting smaller. Oh well. Edited August 11, 2015 by firewood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvability Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 What do you guys find as a good option for W231 especially for Lead/Poly coated - with jacketed I am fine with Titegroup but low smoke and great flexibility with w231 has been my main powder consumable for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 WST and WSF are good options for lead or coated bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 And they could use the same chemistry to make WSP (Winchester Super Pistol) that would have the same "burn rate" as 231 without the legacy process. The situation is critical but not serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobT Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 What do you guys find as a good option for W231 especially for Lead/Poly coated - with jacketed I am fine with Titegroup but low smoke and great flexibility with w231 has been my main powder consumable for years. I just picked up 4 lbs of VV N320, which is just slightly faster than W231, but I haven't really had a chance to work with it much. Hopefully, it will fill that spot. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 If the process truly is 2.5x slower than newer chemistry powders, they should figure the actual cost and charge accordingly. This is manufacturing 101. My guess is all of you loyal 231/HP38 fans aren't going to continue to buy it if the price goes up 2x. I would also guess that Winchester has already determined this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave33 Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I just picked up 4 lbs of VV N320, which is just slightly faster than W231, but I haven't really had a chance to work with it much. Hopefully, it will fill that spot. I think you will find it to be superior to 231 in about every way except price. I just started using n320 a few months ago and its my new favorite powder. I would gladly sell off my titegroup and SR7625 stockpiles if I could replace it with n320, even at the higher price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobT Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I just picked up 4 lbs of VV N320, which is just slightly faster than W231, but I haven't really had a chance to work with it much. Hopefully, it will fill that spot. I think you will find it to be superior to 231 in about every way except price. I just started using n320 a few months ago and its my new favorite powder. I would gladly sell off my titegroup and SR7625 stockpiles if I could replace it with n320, even at the higher price. Thanks....Good to know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 231/HP38 was my "go to" powder from the '70s up until the latest shortage. While looking around I started using Autocomp and CFE Pistol. I like both of them for 9 minor and major. I actually traded my remaining stock of 231 for Autocomp a few months ago. I've stopped looking for 231/HP38 so I'm leaving whatever is left of the supply for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranger Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I wonder what other powders are more expensive to make - is there a list of "old" hard to make versus "new" easy to make powders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andre3k Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) A company names Shooters World is now importing Lovex powders that are along the Titegroup / Win231 burn rate. I guess I will start stocking up on these while its still relatively cheap and plentiful right now. 231 is my most frequently used powder, hate to see it go. Edited August 14, 2015 by andre3k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slavex Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I always found 231 and Tightgroup to be basically interchangeable, I've been on the TG bandwagon since 231 first became hard to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trouble Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Huh? TG and 231 are nowhere close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I really like the Vhit powders. But they have had supply issues in the States off and on. I mostly stopped using them 10 or so years ago when they went through a phase of low availability. But I still keep some N320 around for my .40 loads. N350 was great in .38 Super, and ran much cleaner than the Longshot that I currently use. I guess I had assumed the WST/WSF/WSL powders were made similar to 231 in that they are all flake powders. Are they not made the same way as 231? I am seeing all of those locally, but not 231. So are these others the "new chemistry" stuff? I've been using some WSF recently, as it gives better velocities than 231. I haven't seen Tightgroup in a while either. Shooting .38 Special through a T/C Contender, I got much better groups than a similar load with 231. I've never seen that kind of accuracy increase in a pistol cartridge before just by changing powder. So while 231 has been my "go to" powder for the past couple of decades, I'm not opposed to switching to something else once my current supply runs out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) ww231 is a great broad spectrum powder that works well in almost all pistol calibers for target loads and was available at nearly every LGS that sold powders, and there was a truckload of data for it. I used the last of my ww231 stash last year and found some Alliant shotgun flake and Vectan that perform just as good if not better...and cleaner. One good thing about the powder drought was I tried powders I'd never have given a second look, and am glad I did. Edited August 14, 2015 by Bamboo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santini Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 I'm new to reloading, and with blind luck, my first "score" was 10 lbs. of HP38. I guess I'm pretty lucky now that I look back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobT Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 One good thing about the powder drought was I tried powders I'd never have given a second look, and am glad I did. So true, so true.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outpost75 Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I am told this is a simply another gunshop rumor: The powder has not been discontinued nor have we been told that I going to be discontinued.Mike Van DykeCustomer Service RepresentativeHodgdon Powder Company6430 Vista DriveShawnee, KS 66218913-362-9455 Ext. 109From: Outpost75Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:32 PMTo: Help AccountSubject: W231 / HP38 being phased out? Please tell me it isn't true....Can you authenticate this story? If this is another Internet hoax I would like to assist with rumor control. It seems to be all over the net, but there seems to be no link to a source within the company.Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Been playing with Alliant BE86. Better in 9mm and .38 SPL than 231/HP38. Cleaner and less recoil in wienie match loads. Also doesn't leave a lot of residue in revo chambers. I could live with BE86 if 231/HP38 vanishes... and I have used 231/HP38 for the last decade. Edited August 17, 2015 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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