USPSA 3-Gun rules suggestions

[kurtm]

Kelly:

I like the length limit we have for pistol, I like the length limit for shotgun, I would even go with a length limit for rifle, say the length of a 30 round AR mag. That would automatically eliminate that cool 30 round mag for your FAL, While at the same time completely allow a Beta C mag, It's not as long as a 20 rnd AR mag unless we want to get into width rules also.

If you are going to limit rounds do it across the board, if you are going to limit length, do it across the board, but mixing and melding will ALWAYS lead to unhappiness on someones part

Now the fun starts since I have a round limit I can't use those ISSUE mags for my HK93 and will have to buy some 25 round mags for it OR have the RO count the bullets as I install them in the 35 rounder, same with My cool Galil .223 I won't be able to use those ISSUE 40 round mags for My AR-180, same as above, down to 20 rounders alass!

Length limit?? Wow now I can't even use My cool Galil since I can't find "short mags" Now I can only use 25 rounders for the good old HK so I am forced to be at a disadvantage. WOW we are really cooking now!! Just some food for thought guys, but the minute we limit the mags we use in a rifle we automatically "ban" certain types of ISSUE weapons unless we allow flexability. I know I haven't seen many of these types of rifles at matches, but when I do they are in the hands of NEW SHOOTERS, are we to create rules that DICOURAGE new shooters??? Man you guys are harsh!! KURTM

[P.E. Kelley]

Another 2 pennies,

The difference between rifles i.e. JP vs. any running AR with a good trigger IMHO is nil. Blasphemy for sure but I ran the latter for a number of years and never lost a match due to poor rifle scores. The real difference (capacity) shows in only the most target rich environments. That said, we all know that anytime you reload you are taking a chance in fumbling and barring that you will eat up in time removing and replacing a mag that if it held more would most certainly stay in the gun! Should we ALL have a Beta Mag on hand for such cases? Sure, if that is what WE want. I for one would rather have Open class be the haven for Beta Mags and multi sight systems and leave Limited and Tactical with 30 round mags and field ready firearms. Let us not relegate the skill of reloading to that of a lost art.

I would place shotguns into this same argument. 8+1 for Limited and Tactical. Open is open have at it!

I like the concept that is the IROC. My goal is to win against the best shooter on his best day.

Thanks

PK

[PacMan]

... leave Limited and Tactical with 30 round mags and field ready firearms. 

The Beta C-Mag is a field-ready accessory, created for the military and not a race-driven creation like ghost holster.

With regards to the Galil, Kurtm forgot to mention the 50 rounds magazine that is available on the surplus market, not that I would want to use one, but why mess with what's working?

Again, the $tupid ban had expired, let's not putting it back on ourselves.

[mike.45]

Being one of Kurts 'forigners' I must admit it is interesting reading the posts, and after having shot RM3G last year I sort of kinda understand what people are talking about - being totally objective, as an outsider, what really confused me and fellow Brit, Barry S is the way tactical iron and tactical scope are grouped together, where as I kinda saw it as two different groups.

With regards mag capacity, rifle mag size, shotgun loads and types....

With no power factor I was surprised that no one I saw was using a 9mm high cap pistol (alhough I am sure people were, I didnt RO a pistol stage) one pistol reload in a stage would not have made that much difference overall in my opinion. In the comp I used a very sweet 40 cal STI - had I been using a Beretta 92F I dont really think there would have been a world of difference in my score, had the STI only held 17 rounds I still think the result would have been the same. Do dont need a bells and whisles to be competitive in pistol stages - a production pistol will serve just fine.

I used a 45 rnd Thermold on one stage and it really buggered me up when it jammed my AR up after the first shot - I now regret not simply using a 30 rnd mag ! But I then went on to load 31 rounds in a 30 round mag and ***** another stage because I couldnt count ! The technology doesnt work all the time and you take a chance that it will work....(and that you can count !!) Do I think having the ability to use extra Hi Cap mags an advantage.....no, if I shot it again would I use 30's but that is my choice. Thats what makes it cool, I decide what will work and what I want to take a chance on.

Re shotgun, this is something I kinda know something about and 1 shell difference doesnt make any matter at the upper echelon of 3 gun shooters in 3 gun comps. In IPSC comps this is different as short speed shoots of 9 rounds are common - but in a 3 gun multi target stage, 1 shell difference doesnt make that much difference over a long stage with loading practice.

I do think IPSC rules are strict because they need to be to regulate styles across the globe, however I think the USPSA needs to examine the current non USPSA 3 gun / multi gun rules closely as they seem to work and try not to make it so strict that it dissallows free thinking and become completely dictative. You need to allow people to try and compete effectively with what gun they own, want to buy and can afford, as compared to stating you need to buy x rifle and x size mags to comply with the rules. Its all about individuality and free spirit and the ability to work out whats best for you thats what was cool about what I have seen of US 3 gun so far. The USPSA need to try and retain that ethos.

[ccur]

Yikes!!! Puleeze don't take away my Sterling 40 round mono pod!!!

Cheryl

[Religious Shooter]

You can still use it... just load 30 rounds. Monopod away.

So even if you have standard issue 45's for a particular rifle... download to 30 and you're good to go.

[gl]

Yikes!!!  Puleeze don't take away my Sterling 40 round mono pod!!!

Cheryl

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cheryl,

I would never advocate you not having your 40 rd'r! I love chicks that shoot well as long as it is not at me.

P. E. Kelly, I have shot both Bushmasters and JP's and there is a sight difference infavor of the JP. In an extemely close race between a regular rifle and a JP, the JP woud prevail. Keep in mind I rock with Bushmaster, and I still state this. They make the best basic rifle on the market. It is freakish that the JP virtually does not move (with a Coolie comp) while other rifles I have shot have a pronounced recoil impulse (16" or 20" ......it happens and it can be compensated for, but it is there), and I can not deny it! Kelly Neal will have me buying him a beer for the previous comment, but it is true. Kelly I think it should be a small beer so you don't get busted, Mr. officer of the court, while you drive me home since I presume to have no such restrictions since you will drive.

And Mike.........I think you need to stay in the UK so I can move up a place or two! Your comments are really profound and I hope they are read and paid attention to by those who should take it for the unbiased comment on our current rules problem. Thanks for your comment. Tell Barry I look forward to seeing you two in Greece, along with the german tourist girls! I will only look.........I promise. KN you have to cover me buddy! I can't help myself. I am a freakin' heathen.

Guy Hawkins

P.S. Hope to see you all at the next match!

All of you thanks for your friendship!

[kurtm]

Religious Shooter:

How do you proppose we make sure only 30 get loaded into the perspective mags? I know a lot of people that load out of bulk ammo boxes and don't count out thier rounds or might get distracted while counting. Sounds like we might need a few more ROs to count rounds as they are loaded, because we both know no one would try to slide a rule a bit to get an edge KURTM

[cking]

I've read the thread, an we all pretty much agree about open, anything goes.

Tactical and limited are two areas of contention. I'm for tactical having barrel length limitations. I'm for limited having no optics. I thinks comps should be allowed in both.

[mike.45]

Hi Guy,

Hope you are well. Thanks for the compliment but I dont think your iron sight prowess is in any danger of me just yet

Barry and I are coming back to RM3G this year. We are really looking forward to it and looking forward to sharing a beer or ten with you and the gang - as for Greece next year... practice your Sprechen sie Deutsche as you will be in good Heathen company!!

[benny hill]

Cking, you must not want us old guy's to shoot 3-gun at all. Unless we have optic's on our rifles we cannot shoot. Your eye sight will be there one day.

[BigDave]

Benny -

I think cking only said no-no to optics in Limited, not Tactical or Open. Or, I could be an idiot...

BTW - when are those 21" Benelli barrels coming in?

[Religious Shooter]

Religious Shooter:

How do you proppose we make sure only 30 get loaded into the perspective mags? I know a lot of people that load out of bulk ammo boxes and don't count out thier rounds or might get distracted while counting. Sounds like we might need a few more ROs to count rounds as they are loaded, because we both know no one would try to slide a rule a bit to get an edge   KURTM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well USPSA has done OK with Production and L10. It's the responsibility of the shooter to count. If they make a mistake... pop 'em into open.

[benny hill]

any day now on 21" barrels

[PacMan]

...After reading all the replies, I'm just glad that RM3G and SMM3G are not USPSA-sanctioned events. Seemed to me there are some out there just couldn't leave good enough alone - "Sir, may I have another rule please".

[kurtm]

AMEN Pacmeister!! Here we are squabling "round capacity" when the real stuff to address for USPSA is the multigun stuff like grounding of hot weapons and such, Getting R.O.s up to speed on "all 3", and the problem with the major minor thing in scoring.

It is a sad state of affairs when Texas state 3-gun stated that as of right now they would probable have to run thier match without USPSA sanction, due to the rules that USPSA has for 3-gun. I WILL STILL ATTEND!! Wouldn't miss it for the world!

On an other note, after much thinking, I would agree to a magazine capacity limit in LIMITED only. (Iron sight and 20 round limit.) why 20?? Because that is what a lot of the Major rifles hold, and this would even the playing field. It is darn hard to get a good scope setup on an M1A and an FN. This would be the perfect place for these rifles, without making yet another division of "Heman". I WOULD NEVER SUPORT A 30 ROUND LIMIT as it just makes another AR-15 division. What do you think Religious Shooter?? KURTM

[Larry White]

There you go Kurt, I think I said that on page 1. But I think I know why we need three guns to have any fun, this bunch drifts around more than anybody I ever saw.-----Larry

[XRe]

How 'bout a 10 round limit in Limited... then I could play w/ my box stock SKS.......

<ducks before being hit by return fire> :lol:

Sorry, had to be a smarta**..... One day, I hope to play 3-gun. I hope some good stuff comes out of these threads!!!

[bgary]

Here we are squabling "round capacity" when the real stuff to address for USPSA is the multigun stuff like grounding of hot weapons and such, Getting R.O.s up to speed on "all 3", and the problem with the major minor thing in scoring

-- we're fixing the "grounding of hot weapons"

-- we're developing an RO course addendum *just* for long-guns

-- we're working on the major/minor thing

-- we think we have a way to do the scoring "right"

And, notably.... nobody from the USPSA side that *I* know of is trying to "make up new rules" for things like rifle mag limits or barrel length.

Bruce (I *like* having choices... isn't that what practical is about?)

[kurtm]

Bruce: It's all in the futur tense! Good luck and let us know how it turns out! KURT

XRe: Yes that is as valid a point as any other. I hadn't thought it through but you are right, an SKS shouldn't be at any disadvantage. I guess that would be the paving on the "level playing field" KURTM

[George]

Thanks Bruce, can't wait to see what you have up your sleeve.

When are you going to release the revisions for public review?

--

Regards,

[XRe]

XRe: Yes that is as valid a point as any other. I hadn't thought it through but you are right, an SKS shouldn't be at any disadvantage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, at the very least, it's "limited".... more "limited" than some others

[ErikW]

Make a box for magazines, sized it to fit Galil or AK mags but not drums.

Then tear your hair out when belt fed AR-15 uppers finally become available. (Actually, USPSA probably should plan for that eventuality, e.g., belt-fed in Open only.)

[kimel]

I don't think belt fed would be all that much of an advantage. In my limited experience with belted ammo the loose belts snag on darn near anything unless you keep them closely controlled or in short sections.

Now all my belt-fed experience has been with .30 and greater belts either loose or out of open ammo cans feeding full autos.

If belt fed out of enclosed cans then there might be an advantage. Otherwise not so much.

[springy]

I've seen a couple of references in the posts about problems with grounding a gun during a multi-gun stage. Why not build a box, with a hinged top, that locks

automatically when shut. The shooter finishes with gun #1, places it on safe, in the box, slams the lid, and finishes the stage with gun #2. The RO is the only one with a key to the box. After the stage is finished, the targets scored and pasted, and everyone back up range, the gun is unlocked, retrieved and cleared, and the range is ready for the next shooter. You need a long gun box, and a pistol box. They only need to be built once. They need to accept the gun muzzle down. The time needed to "click" the safety, place the gun in the box, and slam the lid on a multigun stage would have very minimal effect on the HF. michael