Hypocrisy of Production

[motosapiens]

How does the chronoman KNOW that the ammo in that white box is really factory ammo not something you downloaded and repacked? How does the chrono man know that your barrel is the factory barrel not an aftermarket one that for whatever reason is slower then the factory ammo?

Should a 2" barrel gun using the lightest possible "factory" ammo automatically meet power factor?

How does he know I dont have 8 rounds predeterminedly picked out for chrono, that are loaded differently than the stuff I shoot at the match? If integrity is being brought into the discussion, than the mods may as well lock this thread now, because cheating at chrono is absolutely EASY if that's the type of person you are.

Not when I do chrono. I choose the ammo when you arrive either from your belt or your bag my choice.

It's pretty easy to make sure only my special chrono ammo is on my belt and in my bag.

[JAFO]

The only L-II match I've attended with a functioning chrono also pulled ammo from mags at the chrono station.

[Nimitz]

while I haven't exactly been to hundreds of majors I'm with Sarge ... even one I've shot gave you a baggie on your first stage where you put your rounds into it and stuck one of your shooter's labels on the outside & an RO collected it. At Chrono, the RO pulls bags at random and calls the shooter up to the station ....

[teros135]

Thanks, guys. You've taught us that it's easy to cheat the chrono (and apparently lots of people do?). Now we all know how to do it.

Would have preferred a discussion about the value of doing it right, playing fair. Sheesh.

[atbarr]

Thanks, guys. You've taught us that it's easy to cheat the chrono (and apparently lots of people do?). Now we all know how to do it.

Would have preferred a discussion about the value of doing it right, playing fair. Sheesh.

Is THAT all you got out of this 54 post thread. Sheesh!

[Youngeyes]

Thanks, guys. You've taught us that it's easy to cheat the chrono (and apparently lots of people do?). Now we all know how to do it.

Would have preferred a discussion about the value of doing it right, playing fair. Sheesh.

Is THAT all you got out of this 54 post thread. Sheesh!

This^^^ Sheesh!

[twodownzero]

Since most (if not all) level I matches don't have a chrono check. I think the intent about "new shooter showing up with what they have" is still being met. If, after shooting local matches a shooter wants to try level II or III, he or she should then be concerned about ammo making PF.

Copy that. So rules are just for big matches.

On a serious note though. If they never get chronoed at local matches and are under the impression they're within rules/pf, than the first time they would get chronoed would be at a bigger match. It's a mistake they'd only make once, but still

Actually the rules are for all matches. The rules are that if there's no official match chrono, your declared power factor stands. Call it the honor system if you want.

[motosapiens]

Thanks, guys. You've taught us that it's easy to cheat the chrono (and apparently lots of people do?). Now we all know how to do it.

Would have preferred a discussion about the value of doing it right, playing fair. Sheesh.

Everybody already knew how to do it, and I suspect many people are cheating. I would love to see more random testing, but in the meantime I just don't worry about it. The difference for me between shooting 179pf ammo and 166 pf ammo is pretty small (accidentally loaded over 1000 pretty hot rounds a couple months ago).

I totally don't care if new shooters using commercial ammo are making pf or not. Their ammo still has more recoil than mine.

[teros135]

Everybody already knew how to do it, and I suspect many people are cheating. I would love to see more random testing, but in the meantime I just don't worry about it. The difference for me between shooting 179pf ammo and 166 pf ammo is pretty small (accidentally loaded over 1000 pretty hot rounds a couple months ago).

Agreed, we don't want to spend too much time worrying about it. Each person has to go with their own sense of honesty.

Actually, I'd agree that there's a relatively minor difference between PFs of, say, 5 or so in felt recoil. I shot last year at 136 (as chrono'd at two matches), which worked better in that gun, and this year will be at 130 or so. (It's not making me a better shooter, it's the practice. )

For chrono, I just make sure I've worked up my loads, chrono'd them properly, and loaded them consistently (check charge throw and OAL regularly). Then go to the match and don't worry about it. They can take rounds from wherever, they'll all make PF.

Edited March 20, 2015 by teros135

[atbarr]

For chrono, I just make sure I've worked up my loads, chrono'd them properly, and loaded them consistently (check charge throw and OAL regularly). Then go to the match and don't worry about it. They can take rounds from wherever, they'll all make PF.

+1 ^^^^^^

[Bkreutz]

I don't worry about people who cheat, I figure Karma will take care of them. I have a code of ethics that has served me well and I don't see me changing that after all these years. The idea of "cheating" never even enters my mind.

[T Bacus]

Since most (if not all) level I matches don't have a chrono check. I think the intent about "new shooter showing up with what they have" is still being met. If, after shooting local matches a shooter wants to try level II or III, he or she should then be concerned about ammo making PF.

100%

[T Bacus]

Footnote: I'm a limited shooter that reloads, so no bitterness here, just my observation.

Blew this out of the water in a hurry!

And you and this thread proved something quickly too, although it's been proven time and time again without fail. If someone has an opinion, idea, view point, gripe, or any other synonym that would generally lead to an open discussion, they must either be bitter, jealous, suck, lazy or all the above.

Just personally find it odd that 2 boxes of factory ammo, both that have been tested to produce satisfactory pf, and with one you're good to go regardless and the other you may be sol. Just depending on what name was on the box. To go even one, "what if", step further. You could have AA produce a large lot of ammo in preparation for Nationals. They take it to the match and supply the match with official match ammo. Having extra, they sell the rest at they're booth/table. Now, if their load was off (and it's happened before) the people whom bought the same lot of ammo through the program are fine. But the people who bought it at the table, aren't. Same ammo, only difference is price and a sheet of paper

You must be a liberal, sitting around, dreaming up ways people might be treated unfairly.

[thermobollocks]

ICORE lists certain factory brands in certain bullet weights they will accept as match ammo.

"A competitor, using a revolver chambered in .38 Special and/or .357 Magnum and using factory new UMC 158 grain, Remington 158 grain, Blazer 158 grain, or Federal American Eagle 158 grain ammunition, may compete without regard to power factor."

The down side is you get to shoot at those silly tombstone targets.

[jrbet83]

Footnote: I'm a limited shooter that reloads, so no bitterness here, just my observation.

Blew this out of the water in a hurry!

And you and this thread proved something quickly too, although it's been proven time and time again without fail. If someone has an opinion, idea, view point, gripe, or any other synonym that would generally lead to an open discussion, they must either be bitter, jealous, suck, lazy or all the above.

Just personally find it odd that 2 boxes of factory ammo, both that have been tested to produce satisfactory pf, and with one you're good to go regardless and the other you may be sol. Just depending on what name was on the box. To go even one, "what if", step further. You could have AA produce a large lot of ammo in preparation for Nationals. They take it to the match and supply the match with official match ammo. Having extra, they sell the rest at they're booth/table. Now, if their load was off (and it's happened before) the people whom bought the same lot of ammo through the program are fine. But the people who bought it at the table, aren't. Same ammo, only difference is price and a sheet of paper

You must be a liberal, sitting around, dreaming up ways people might be treated unfairly.

It's not my fault you weren't intelligent enough to realize all the wonderful things that Ralph Nader would have done for this country.

[Nimitz]

don't you mean Al Gore? He did invent the Internet after all .... (it was not Harold Finch as most believe ...)

[usmc90]

I think I read every post in this thread and don't think I seen one post about shooting ability with sub-pf ammo..

I personally don't think the guy who shows up to a match with ammo like that is going to automatically shoot all A's ?? It is "production" class after all.. so many seem to be worrying about joe-shmo showing up with light ammo ...What about the guy who's running all custom parts & work inside his pistol? Or the not so factory (production) sights ?

I will concede to being newer to the sport and this coming sept. Will be shooting my first state sectionals. So I am still in a bit of a learning curve

[teros135]

It doesn't matter what we think about a rule - it's the rule.

Minor is 125 and up, Major is 165 and up. Anybody who's knowingly using less than that and declares it wrongly is cheating, and we don't want to tolerate that.

Legal mods within a Division are legal, and fair because everybody can do them. If you don't want to, don't bellyache, and shoot what you brung.

All-metal guns (or 1911's/2011's, or Berettas, or legally-modified polymer guns, or "flavor of the month" guns) don't make a Master out of a C shooter, no matter what anybody says. Just sayin'.

Edited April 7, 2015 by teros135

[Wesquire]

don't you mean Al Gore? He did invent the Internet after all .... (it was not Harold Finch as most believe ...)

I'm not an Al Gore fan, but it is sad that this keeps getting repeated even though he never claimed to invent the internet.