jrbet83 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Just got done reading "The Chronoman Report" in this issue of Front Sight. For you that haven't read it, a quick synopsis is to not trust data printed for factory ammo because every gun is different, even for the same make, model and manufacture. And that everyone should have a bullet puller, scale and chrono, and they should use them (to check pf) regularly. Two examples are used. The first is the husband and wife team that are using two of the exact same guns, shooting the same factory ammo. One makes pf, one doesn't. The other, is the shooter who doesn't make pf with his 4" gun with Winchester white box, despite the data stating he should, because assumably the data was done with a longer barrel. Here's where's my perceived hypocrisy pops up. Whenever a suggestion, idea or rumor is heard about changing/modifying production, USPSA gives relatively the same exact cut and paste response; "That wasn't the intent of production. Production is so shooters can show up with their stock guns and compete". Now the advice given by Greg in the article is 100% accurate under the current rules. But is that an issue? If that IS the intent of production, should someone be able to shoot Winchester white box and federal american eagle etc (probably the two most popular/available plinking ammo) since the data states it makes pf? If that ammo was apart of the "Match Ammo" program, wouldn't he be good to go than? Just seems odd, that on one hand you tell shooters (especially new shooters) come out and shoot production, you can bring your stock pistol and compete. But on the other hand, you tell him, unless you want to gamble, you need to chrono your ammo and there's a possibility if you want to shoot that stock gun, you'll need to shoot ammo X (which is more expensive) or go out and buy a press and start reloading. Obviously you probably have to draw the line someone, but personally I think you have an issue if a stock standard size (4-4.5") pistol that's on the production approved list can't make pf with standard factory ammo. Especially when we're told, this is what the division was made for. Footnote: I'm a limited shooter that reloads, so no bitterness here, just my observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 No hypocrisy. Some factory guns are not legal fo production division. Some factory loads won't make power factor in some guns. It's up to the competitor to know the rules, and their equipment. Most manage to show up with legal gear and ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 We had a discussion about "intent" a few years ago (USPSA and IPSC) and this is all I ever found about intent (or purpose in this case) "The purpose of production division is to open USPSA to new shooters, manufacturers and sponsors." I think the division met the purpose. There was no relief from meeting minimum requirements of ammo, etc. Here is the thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=143671&p=1613346 Later, Chuck PS: WWB shot 137 in my stock SP-01 barrel...Way too harsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 How does the chronoman KNOW that the ammo in that white box is really factory ammo not something you downloaded and repacked? How does the chrono man know that your barrel is the factory barrel not an aftermarket one that for whatever reason is slower then the factory ammo? Should a 2" barrel gun using the lightest possible "factory" ammo automatically meet power factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbet83 Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 How does the chronoman KNOW that the ammo in that white box is really factory ammo not something you downloaded and repacked? How does the chrono man know that your barrel is the factory barrel not an aftermarket one that for whatever reason is slower then the factory ammo? Should a 2" barrel gun using the lightest possible "factory" ammo automatically meet power factor? How does he know I dont have 8 rounds predeterminedly picked out for chrono, that are loaded differently than the stuff I shoot at the match? If integrity is being brought into the discussion, than the mods may as well lock this thread now, because cheating at chrono is absolutely EASY if that's the type of person you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Since most (if not all) level I matches don't have a chrono check. I think the intent about "new shooter showing up with what they have" is still being met. If, after shooting local matches a shooter wants to try level II or III, he or she should then be concerned about ammo making PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbet83 Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 No hypocrisy. Some factory guns are not legal fo production division. Some factory loads won't make power factor in some guns. It's up to the competitor to know the rules, and their equipment. Most manage to show up with legal gear and ammo. So if you shoot below pf with Match Ammo, it's okay because it's not suppose to and it's stated/printed to make pf. But if you do it with factory ammo, it doesn't matter what it states/printed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbet83 Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Since most (if not all) level I matches don't have a chrono check. I think the intent about "new shooter showing up with what they have" is still being met. If, after shooting local matches a shooter wants to try level II or III, he or she should then be concerned about ammo making PF. Copy that. So rules are just for big matches.On a serious note though. If they never get chronoed at local matches and are under the impression they're within rules/pf, than the first time they would get chronoed would be at a bigger match. It's a mistake they'd only make once, but still Edited March 13, 2015 by jrbet83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 How does he know I dont have 8 rounds predeterminedly picked out for chrono, that are loaded differently than the stuff I shoot at the match? If integrity is being brought into the discussion, than the mods may as well lock this thread now, because cheating at chrono is absolutely EASY if that's the type of person you are. The chrono man is there to keep folks honest. If everyone was always good about making sure their ammo and guns were legit we would never even need a chrono man so lets not pretend everyone in our game is always honest. Can you still fool him? Maybe, but at that point you are into double douchebaggery territory and I'd hope there are a bit fewer of those folks around. But they are around, no doubt. So if you shoot below pf with Match Ammo, it's okay because it's not suppose to and it's stated/printed to make pf. But if you do it with factory ammo, it doesn't matter what it states/printed. The point of match ammo is to make sure you can have SOME ammo at matches that involve travel and odd shipping requirements. Its not as if you are going to somehow cheat on the match ammo. What is the fear here, that somehow you'll sneak into the factory and modify a batch? Even if the match ammo is sub-minor in your gun, odds are you won't have an advantage over anyone else shooting the same ammo (cause same ammo) or shooting their own ammo making powerfactor as the match ammo is likely to feel odd to you anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifeislarge Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I say make it a rule that everyone who wants to compete in any USPSA sanctioned match has to own a Dillon 650 and load their ammo to meet or exceed PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbet83 Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) How does he know I dont have 8 rounds predeterminedly picked out for chrono, that are loaded differently than the stuff I shoot at the match? If integrity is being brought into the discussion, than the mods may as well lock this thread now, because cheating at chrono is absolutely EASY if that's the type of person you are. The chrono man is there to keep folks honest. If everyone was always good about making sure their ammo and guns were legit we would never even need a chrono man so lets not pretend everyone in our game is always honest. Can you still fool him? Maybe, but at that point you are into double douchebaggery territory and I'd hope there are a bit fewer of those folks around. But they are around, no doubt. So if you shoot below pf with Match Ammo, it's okay because it's not suppose to and it's stated/printed to make pf. But if you do it with factory ammo, it doesn't matter what it states/printed. The point of match ammo is to make sure you can have SOME ammo at matches that involve travel and odd shipping requirements. Its not as if you are going to somehow cheat on the match ammo. What is the fear here, that somehow you'll sneak into the factory and modify a batch? Even if the match ammo is sub-minor in your gun, odds are you won't have an advantage over anyone else shooting the same ammo (cause same ammo) or shooting their own ammo making powerfactor as the match ammo is likely to feel odd to you anyway. So it is ok to go sub minor with certain "factory" ammo but not with others. It's starting to make sense now. Sorry for the confusion.Oh and fyi, the chrono man has nothing to do with keeping people honest. His job is to pull the trigger and document the numbers. The only way he even knows those are your bullets, is because the paper in the baggy. The only person you have to fool, is yourself. Because if you're low enough to cheat, than you'll probably get away with it unfortunately. Edited March 13, 2015 by jrbet83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Dude, you a reaching. I get that you are annoyed by something that doesn't actually affect you and you be can as snide as you wish. Alternatively why don't you propose a method that is better. You are ok with me finding the LIGHTEST "factory" ammo and using that? What if say Remington starts selling a "Steel Challenge" load that makes 100pf and I can buy that at my local store and use it in USPSA? Are you ok with that? If it bothers you so much, stop shooting production or talk to your Area Director. Oh wait, you don't shoot production. Edited March 13, 2015 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Since most (if not all) level I matches don't have a chrono check. I think the intent about "new shooter showing up with what they have" is still being met. If, after shooting local matches a shooter wants to try level II or III, he or she should then be concerned about ammo making PF. Copy that. So rules are just for big matches.On a serious note though. If they never get chronoed at local matches and are under the impression they're within rules/pf, than the first time they would get chronoed would be at a bigger match. It's a mistake they'd only make once, but still Wasn't saying anything about rules, just an observation. I've never seen a local, level 1 match with a chrono check. Maybe they exist, but I haven't seen them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Locally we do random'ish chrono at the local matches, maybe once a year or so, unannounced. Come to think of it, we haven't done it a while. Also it isn't USPSA job (locally or otherwise) to make sure a shooter had the chance to chrono their ammo. That's the shooter's problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGMorden Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Are there that many newbies really getting dinged at major matches for using factory ammo?It always amazes me that Production seems to be the fastest growing division in the sport, with tons of interest, yet every week there's another post here about how to "fix" Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Tag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Are there that many newbies really getting dinged at major matches for using factory ammo? It always amazes me that Production seems to be the fastest growing division in the sport, with tons of interest, yet every week there's another post here about how to "fix" Production. No, it's not about a need to "fix" production. There's griping and whining going on regarding some aspect of all the divisions. Some people just seem to need to complain. Most of us would rather spend more of our time practicing and competing than complaining. We're all aware of the rules and can discuss them, as needed, with the match officials if something comes up. There's no "hypocracy" here - that's just an insult to the sport and all of those who participate in it honestly and with sportsmanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbet83 Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Are there that many newbies really getting dinged at major matches for using factory ammo? It always amazes me that Production seems to be the fastest growing division in the sport, with tons of interest, yet every week there's another post here about how to "fix" Production. No, it's not about a need to "fix" production. There's griping and whining going on regarding some aspect of all the divisions. Some people just seem to need to complain. Most of us would rather spend more of our time practicing and competing than complaining. We're all aware of the rules and can discuss them, as needed, with the match officials if something comes up. There's no "hypocracy" here - that's just an insult to the sport and all of those who participate in it honestly and with sportsmanship. Id rather just complain....It's easier, plus who wants to practice? Edited March 13, 2015 by jrbet83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 so it is ok to go sub minor with certain "factory" ammo but not with others. It's starting to make sense now. Sorry for the confusion. I don't know if I'd say it's 'ok', but if there's no chrono, it's not possible to go subminor. Your pf is what you declare. If you *knowingly and intentionally* load subminor ammo, then you're probably cheating, but I have to say I don't really care if it's commercial ammo at a local match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 No hypocrisy. Some factory guns are not legal fo production division. Some factory loads won't make power factor in some guns. It's up to the competitor to know the rules, and their equipment. Most manage to show up with legal gear and ammo. So if you shoot below pf with Match Ammo, it's okay because it's not suppose to and it's stated/printed to make pf. But if you do it with factory ammo, it doesn't matter what it states/printed. Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Footnote: I'm a limited shooter that reloads, so no bitterness here, just my observation. Blew this out of the water in a hurry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 when did it ever say the intent of production was for new shooters to show up with whatever ammo they liked and compete? You need to pick some kind of minimum standard everyone can conform to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent1k1 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Hey, when is the last time you heard a Limited guy bitch about their Division? Everything is perfect in Limited. We even get 6 inch barrels and thumbrests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbet83 Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 Hey, when is the last time you heard a Limited guy bitch about their Division? Everything is perfect in Limited. We even get 6 inch barrels and thumbrests. That's just because we need more help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbet83 Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Footnote: I'm a limited shooter that reloads, so no bitterness here, just my observation.Blew this out of the water in a hurry! Sorry, double tap Edited March 13, 2015 by jrbet83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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