how fast is too fast?

[3djedi]

First off, is it too fast or to fast? lol

In this question I am talking about fast strings of fire like shooting 2 rounds at a target or like a bill drill.

When I go at a comfortable pace I can get mostly A's. When I go "fast" I start getting hits all over the place. I've heard people say "never slow down" go as fast as you can in your training. But how fast is too fast? I can go super fast and get d's and mikes but how is that going to help me be fast and accurate?

Should I pace my speed to my accuracy? If I'm doing say a bill drill and I go "fast" and I get 3 A's and 3 C's should I keep practicing at that pace and try to improve somehow or should I back it off a hair and go for more A's?

Are there any tricks too shooting fast? I've heard some people say death grip to control the recoil and some people say grip it like you would a hammer. Just enough to keep it from flying out of your hand. I've heard that if you do the death grip the pistol won't track straight up and down and you will get shots to the left and right. What's the key? I've noticed the faster I try to go the more I tense up. Instead of using adequate force to engage the trigger I start using more and more force.

For reference, I've been shooting for about two years and in C class.

Edited February 27, 2015 by 3djedi

[RangerTrace]

I think you need to know both things. How fast can you physically pull the trigger and how fast can you shoot and still see your sights/call your shots. For me, I can manage .10-.12 splits if I'm just pulling the trigger. But if I'm watching the sights it goes to .18-.20. Of course that gets longer depending on the size/distance of the target.

I tend to grip the pistol as tight as I can.

[emjei]

Listen to Steve Anderson Podcasts....... there is a Training guy and a Match guy

Mj

[Sarge]

There is also timing of the load and gun to consider. Since I switched to open I tend to have more "aha" moments. Messing with different loads I have my gun shooting 2 shots about 3- 4" apart at 10 yards or so if I just slap the trigger as fast as I can. Trying to capture the dot again is slower. With the wrong loads doing that results in more C and D hits for sure. This is probably all wrong but it does work. Maybe you could try a few loads and see how your gun reacts doing this?

[wide45]

Too fast, "to" is wrong.

Actually, the question is wrong, because it is not about being fast, or slow.

It's about seeing. If you work at it, you can see where the sights are as the gun is firing. That will tell you where the shots are going, as it happens. You can use that information to refine your grip in practice, and you will learn how to shoot better points with less wasted time.

[3djedi]

So go as fast as you can see the sights....

[Willz]

To shoot fast you have to see fast.

[Racinready300ex]

I think it's a matter of figuring out why you are missing. How fast are you going? Are you talking bill drills at 7 yards? What are your splits?

Are your shots grouped, just the group is some what out of the A zone? That could just be your not getting a good grip on the draw, so the gun doesn't index right and your shots are off. If the shots are just kind of all over the place you probably need to work on your grip. Not just how hard you hold the gun, but maybe how you're holding the gun.

If you're doing something like a Blake drill watch for pulling off the target to soon, or getting on the trigger to soon. You can work on that in dry fire.

[Graham Smith]

This has been discussed numerous times and it's worth taking the time to dig into older threads on calculating your hit factor and the effect of speed vs points. It really helps you to see the tradeoffs.

I keep telling myself the same thing over and over, "You can't miss fast enough to win." But it's really slow to sink in. Sometimes speed is required but if you are getting D's or misses then you are going too fast.

[Jake Di Vita]

Gradually increase your speed until your hits are compromised, then hold that speed until your accuracy catches up. Rinse, repeat. Faster does not mean sloppier.

[kevin c]

I like what Saul Kirsch said, which pretty much reflects Jake's comments.

At any given level of power, IPSC performance is a matter of accuracy and speed, and how much accuracy you need to sacrifice to get the speed. If you don't have the ability to produce a certain degree of accuracy at will, you don't have it to sacrifice to get the speed.

[JAFO]

I keep telling myself the same thing over and over, "You can't miss fast enough to win." But it's really slow to sink in.

Yeah, I remind myself of that whenever I finish a stage that felt so smooth and fast, but was riddled with D's and Mikes.

For me, I find I can shoot faster if I grip the gun harder. Not to the point of shaking, but very firmly. What I'm working on now is trying to ingrain that level of grip all the time, not just when I notice the front sight bouncing all over the place.

[crni4]

I started winning local matches once i started trusting myself more and just taking more risk. I cannot call my shots 100% yet but i trust my gun more and my skill so i just go for it.

[moostapha]

Based on Brian's book and some advice I've gotten in the past, I think I actually have an answer for figuring this out, albeit not a particularly satisfying one. It does seem to be helping me so far.

Please keep in mind that I'm a beginner when it comes to practical shooting and pistol in general...but I think the important (mental) part of this advice kind of falls under the "shooting is shooting" category.

You need to shoot as fast as you can without outrunning your sights. I think everybody I've asked, talked to, or read has said that.

The big piece of advice came from a former Olympian and (then) US National Olympic Team coach (I was shooting Air Rifle and Free Rifle at the time). You never need your shots perfect...striving for perfection on every shot is self-defeating. You just want your shots good enough. The advice was to shoot quicly enough that the time limit twice what it needs to be for you to shoot the match...then just pick the right ones to actually fire. I already shot quickly enough to do it but wasn't thinking about it that way...I was throwing away ~half the time available to me. That advice/realization made a huge difference to my shooting...literally overnight.

The time pressures are different for practical shooting vs. olympic precision (as fast as you can vs. finish within a very generous time limit). So, the thought process is correspondingly different. In the practical world, you don't abort shots and start over, you decide how long to wait for a better sight picture vs. breaking the shot with what you've got. The core question: is a better sight picture worth the time it costs?

I worked out a drill that seems to get at this for practical pistol....it's helping me so far.

Concentrating just on 1 target at a time, the first step is to decide how good the hits need to be and how long the string needs to be. AA? AC? AAC? AAAACC? AAAAAA? It's up to you. I'd recommend a goal of Draw to AA, just becuase it saves ammo.

But, keep in mind that this measure of 'good enough' is based on results, not your performance, which is what matters. Remember...do your thing and the score will work itself out....you're trying to figure out the performance you need to get the results you want.

The drill is to set up a target at basically contact distance...close enough that you can shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger and won't miss your goal.

If you hit your goal, tape it up, increase the distance a yard, and repeat.

Each time you miss the goal, leave the target where it is and repeat that distance, but wait for a slightly better sight picture than what you were using.

Watch your times & splits to see how they change...if it's not a small change in time from X yds to X+1 yds or your shots are on top of each other, you probably had a better sight picture than you needed and should probably figure out something in between the 2 attempts before you move on. Or, you might be okay with it depending on your level.

Tthe first change (for me) came at about 4 yards...where instead of just looking at the A zone and kind of seeing a gun in front of me, I had to peripherally see that the slide (in profile) looked basically like it was pointing straight-ish. That got me out a little farther. I was using a dot sight when I did this, so the next step was to see the my focal point (on the target) through window (the dot itself was there but not being paid any attention)....then watching the same focus point in the window, noticing the dot, and not really caring exactly where it was...then the dot in the A zone....then the dot towards the middle of the A zone...then the dot on the marked A...etc.....progressively moving towards smaller aiming points, more precise alignment of everything, and more focused trigger control.

You do the same thing repeating it if the shots didn't match your call (even if it was a good result). Shooting AA when you called AC is a failure for that step...'cuz you did something wrong, it just turned out in your favor).

You're looking for better (and slower) performances as the shots get harder, essentially trying to figure out the worst performance you can make that gives the result you want. This is the definition of a good enough performance that I've been trying for. Then, in a match, you'll at least have an idea of what you need to wait for.

It seems like a good exercise for learning to shoot as fast as you can but no faster, which seems like what we're getting at.

After that, improving seems like it's a matter of refining your technique so that each sight picture level happens faster (or works for a harder shot)...which is something I have no idea how to help with....I'm still trying to figure that out, just like we all probably are.

Someone please correct me if I seem way off.

[leath4m]

This is how I do it. I benchmark everything and have a range diary. As per Ben Stoegers book. When I got serious my ElPrez was around 9s and that was comfy for me, all As. So now im aware of my limit. I know my draw times, transitions , splits etc. so I'm out on the range training ElPrez I'll shoot a few 8-9s drills. Then set my par time to 6.5, expect some Cs and Ds and God forbid some mikes. But it's teaching me what I need to see and what this pace feels like. So after a few strings of this I'll go back to my normal speed. Then I find 9s is easy to do, so now my new benchmark is 7-8. So that's all documented and I repeat the process. Now after many months 6s ElPrez for me is achievable . Then I switch up to other drills doing the same thing. I train till the wheels fall off then back it off a little. A timer is your best training buddy, it highlights all the areas you need working on. Hope this helps.

[shws]

As long as you're getting A's and close C's

[cnote]

As long as you're getting A's and close C's

And shooting major .....

[a matt]

I think you need to know both things. How fast can you physically pull the trigger and how fast can you shoot and still see your sights/call your shots. For me, I can manage .10-.12 splits if I'm just pulling the trigger. But if I'm watching the sights it goes to .18-.20. Of course that gets longer depending on the size/distance of the target.

I tend to grip the pistol as tight as I can.

.10, I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to see that video... Shane Coley is the only person I have seen that has video of .12 on demand. One more would be kinda cool. Yea?

[Nimitz]

my thoughts exactly ... I'll need to see video of .10-.12 splits .... I get excited whenever I can execute just a .18 or .19 on a target with an A hit with my Shadow ...

Edited May 31, 2015 by Nimitz

[RangerTrace]

I think you need to know both things. How fast can you physically pull the trigger and how fast can you shoot and still see your sights/call your shots. For me, I can manage .10-.12 splits if I'm just pulling the trigger. But if I'm watching the sights it goes to .18-.20. Of course that gets longer depending on the size/distance of the target.

I tend to grip the pistol as tight as I can.

.10, I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to see that video... Shane Coley is the only person I have seen that has video of .12 on demand. One more would be kinda cool. Yea?

I don't have a video right now, but Ken Cobb has witnessed it. Next time I go to the range, I'll try to get some video.....

You did read the part where I said "If I'm just pulling the trigger" right? That means not aiming.....

[Jake Di Vita]

Got some match video from Ohio that has an 11, few 12s and bunch of 13s. It's probably not exact since it was done with Max's app and not an actual view of the timer for obvious reasons. Real fast splits just kind of seem like something that some people kind of have and some don't. I knew 2 or 3 guys pretty well that don't shoot much anymore that could manage 10s pretty consistently. If I can ever find time to get some non match live fire in, I'd love to try and get some cool video.

[a matt]

Please don't think I'm saying you didn't do it, I just like to see or even watch live. We look at the timer from time to time when some awesome splits happen... Thanks and good Shooting..

I figure we can put your name in with Shane when it comes to shooting .12 splits on demand...that's not a bad thing in my book..

[a matt]

First off, is it too fast or to fast? lol

In this question I am talking about fast strings of fire like shooting 2 rounds at a target or like a bill drill.

When I go at a comfortable pace I can get mostly A's. When I go "fast" I start getting hits all over the place. I've heard people say "never slow down" go as fast as you can in your training. But how fast is too fast? I can go super fast and get d's and mikes but how is that going to help me be fast and accurate?

Should I pace my speed to my accuracy? If I'm doing say a bill drill and I go "fast" and I get 3 A's and 3 C's should I keep practicing at that pace and try to improve somehow or should I back it off a hair and go for more A's?

Are there any tricks too shooting fast? I've heard some people say death grip to control the recoil and some people say grip it like you would a hammer. Just enough to keep it from flying out of your hand. I've heard that if you do the death grip the pistol won't track straight up and down and you will get shots to the left and right. What's the key? I've noticed the faster I try to go the more I tense up. Instead of using adequate force to engage the trigger I start using more and more force.

For reference, I've been shooting for about two years and in C class.

[a matt]

Just a thought on your bill drill question about 3 A's and 2 C's, do it both ways shoot as fast as you can. The shoot as fast as you can hitting all Alpha's then check the HIT FACTOR on both. That will gif you your answer..

[pjb45]

Mike Seeklander has some good advice.

First you have a comfort zone. In order to improve you have to push out of your comfort zone.

Controlled Chaos!

The problem often associated with going out of your comfort zone is quality is compromised. So at the end of a training it is critical to come back to shooting only quality shots. Your mind is going to remember the last items in your training session.