openclassterror Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 We have had a number of customers ask us if we would build an off-the-shelf 3gun-ready upper. So my question here is, if you could spec the ideal upper for 3gun ONLY, what would it look like. Going beyond the standard "barrel length and handguard" questions. Things like- Port door or not? Forward assist or not? Light as possible, or not important? In addition to barrel length, gas length, contour, and twist? Fluted? Ship with no comp so customer can pick their own, or a proven, practical design like the Miculek that can be replaced if customer wants different? Extended latch (gunfighter, raptor, other, or factory)? Brass deflector, or weight savings? Light carrier and adj gas? Handguard length? Obviously we will not all agree on everything, but I want to see if there is a general direction that Practical seems to be going, or is it too individualized to have a "Standard" model? Thanks guys! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Tom, I'm not sure that you can get ALL those variable just right for everyone. There are like a million possible combinations and making just one to make everyone happy is probably not going to make anyone happy. My choice? Side charging, forward assist (shouldn't have to ever use it, but might as well have it), yes on the door (for those stages where the gun is staged on the dusty trail and you are gonna kick rocks getting to it), light is good but secondary, 18" rifle gas, 1/8, reduced size gas hole to make it less required to use an adjustable gas block, A2 profile barrel or maybe a bit thicker but not by a lot, include a cheap comp like the Miculek, extended charging shouldn't matter if you side charge it, brass deflector I'm not sure about, low mass carrier is a yes, 15" handguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyinTX Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) Port door or not? Yes, helps with the dust. Forward assist or not? Not important to me, so no. Light as possible, or not important? Light in the right components. For example I'd rather have a slightly heavier barrel but offset with a lightest possible handguard. In addition to barrel length, gas length, contour, and twist? Fluted? Maybe couple of options. 18" medium contour with rifle gas. 16" medium contour with intermediate gas. Fluting looks cool and saves some weight. Ship with no comp so customer can pick their own, or a proven, practical design like the Miculek that can be replaced if customer wants different? Again options, default to no comp but keep something like the Miculek for the new guy who wants a out of the box complete upper. Extended latch (gunfighter, raptor, other, or factory)? gunfighter mod 4 is my Goldilocks choice. Brass deflector, or weight savings? Brass deflector Light carrier and adj gas? Reduced size gas port. Light carrier and standard weight options Handguard length? 15" seems to be common enough choice. We all know that you can't build one upper and have everyone praise it as perfect. A few options on 2-3 different components let you reach a broader range of customers wants and still not have to have a massive inventory to eat all the profits. 2 years ago I bought my first upper to shoot 3 gun. After a little research I bought a large manufacturer's 3 gun upper and stuck it on the lower I assembled for my first ar. From the get go I wasn't all that happy with it but it got me to shooting matches. Did a lot more research, discovered BE, bought an upper from a vendor here and sold the first upper. The two uppers were priced within $60 of each other. Now I focus on spending money on ammo not my rifle. Edited February 26, 2015 by TyinTX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 20" barrel with .750 contour all the way out to the end. NO TAC LATCH! Just a standard extra strength Nordic charging handle. Brass deflector. FA not needed. No comp, as there are way too many. Send threaded. Light carrier and adjustable gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Not looking for a formula for the perfect rifle. What I am looking for are consensus patterns. For example, say 80% of people agree that the port door is a necessity. Obviously our build would include it. Or, 75% of people say the forward assist just shoves crap in you chamber and shouldn't be used. No point in adding the weight then. I know I have my opinions on what it needs (for the record, my rifle has neither), but that doesn't mean the majority of 3gunners don't disagree with my personal thoughts. Both of the responses so far have good opinions. Please add more! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHMSA15151 Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I'd go with what I have on mine. No forward assist. light (carbon fiber) hand guard, low mass BC, adjustable gas, minimum length higher end barrel that would at least shoot 69's maybe 75's. Don't need the dust cover and I'd just leave the barrel threaded as comps come and go. Everyone has their favorite and new ones are popping up everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Side charge upper (both sides usable)(no door or brass deflector) 18" Nordic (or similar barrel)(small port, non gas adjustable)(threaded, no comp) 15" carbon fiber handguard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushmeat Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I'd like a non-reciprocating charger on the left side, a port door for those dusty situations, 18" barrel, 1-in-8 twist, med contour, fluted, rifle gas, threaded (comp ordered as an option), low profile gas block, regular weight BCG, ALG or MI 15" handguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakman Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Slick-side upper (no FA), 18" medium contour rifle-length fluted barrel, adjustable gas-block (or low-profile gas-piston like AA XLP), low-mass BCG, BCM Gunfighter Mod2 handle, std bbl threading, Samson Evolution 15" handguard. ...and you were right the first time....it's TacOps. It will ALWAYS be TacOps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 20" barrel with .750 contour all the way out to the end. NO TAC LATCH! Just a standard extra strength Nordic charging handle. Brass deflector. FA not needed. No comp, as there are way too many. Send threaded. Light carrier and adjustable gas. Kurt, you know a 20 inch barrel is just totally uncompetitive nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I like a port door, not needed most of the time, but it is nice to have. FA unnecessary as it can't be used with JP carrier. Yes on brass deflector as you may need to shoot left handed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairmckenzie1 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Port door or not? YES Forward assist or not? NO Light as possible, or not important? I'm not a 16" guy anymore, but 16" could go Med contour. 18" should be light-ish In addition to barrel length, gas length, contour, and twist? Fluted? 18",1-8, rifle length, no flutes,Seekins Adjustable Gas Block, less than a SPR contour Ship with no comp so customer can pick their own, or a proven, practical design like the Miculek that can be replaced if customer wants different? Pick the best 3. I love the Surefire 556. I've have some rethreaded and reamed to accommodate other calibers and they still work great. Some people like the Michulek. Regardless pick the best 3 options and offer them up. I think you would be surprised how many shooters would freak out that they had to screw their own brake on. Extended latch (gunfighter, raptor, other, or factory)? Again pick 3. Steel charging handle, maybe badger, BCM med(my favorite) Brass deflector, or weight savings? deflector Light carrier and adj gas? JP Stainless and Lancer Gas block. Handguard length? Again maybe 3 options. I used to like 12.5 JP's. Now all of my rifles wear Lancer Carbon fiber (15",15" and 12'). Maybe a Midwest Industries for some cost savings. Edited February 27, 2015 by blairmckenzie1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Port door or not? Yes Forward assist or not? Not required and will not work with most lightweight carrier Light as possible, or not important? should be fairly light with weight coming from a light-medium 18" barrel In addition to barrel length, gas length, contour, and twist? Fluted? 18" rifle gas light medium contour. No need to flute as the cost adds up. Ship with no comp so customer can pick their own, or a proven, practical design like the Miculek that can be replaced if customer wants different? Ship with the Miculek or one comp as the standard with option to remove. Extended latch (gunfighter, raptor, other, or factory)? BCM small latch CH Brass deflector, or weight savings? Yes Light carrier and adj gas? Yes to both Handguard length? 15" Carbon fiber I would think that you need to keep cost down to be competitive and some options add up quick. Options like a fluted barrel add cost quick. A side charger adds cost to the overall build. I don't want or think in need a side charger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iowashooter Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) I would say budget should be kept in mind as most people that want to buy off the shelf as opposed to building are usually budget minded. I would say slick upper with nordic 18" competition barrel. Low mass operating system with miculek comp (it is best bang for the buck comp). 15" handguard personally I like carbon fiber for the warm to the touch and as well as aesthetics. Rifle length gas. It should be weight conscious but not weight centered meaning save weight in easy places like the reciever and handguard to allow a slightly heavier profile barrel. A nice charging handle would be a plus. If it ends up with a low mass bcg pair with the appropriate buffer and spring. Edited February 27, 2015 by Iowashooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 This is what I was looking for! So far, looks like vast majority leans toward 18" rifle gas, forward assist not needed, port door leaning toward a majority. We can make an inexpensive comp in-house very similar to the Miculek, to save the customer some dough, but allow them to change it out without feeling like they wasted a bunch of money. Keep the thoughts coming guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NisilS14 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Port door or not? yes Forward assist or not? No Light as possible, or not important? Light weight within reason Barrel length, gas length, contour, and twist? Fluted? intermediate 16" or rifle 18", ~2lb finished contour maybe a few oz's lighter, 1/8 twist Ship with no comp so customer can pick their own, or a proven, practical design like the Miculek that can be replaced if customer wants different? No comp, way too many choices. Maybe A2 hider or thread protector Extended latch (gunfighter, raptor, other, or factory)? Factory. Again, many choices for everyone. Brass deflector, or weight savings? Brass deflector Light carrier and adj gas? yes for adj gas, leave BCG for customer's choice. Handguard length? 13"+ Edited February 28, 2015 by NisilS14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I kind of am liking the no BCG group with a adj gas idea as it allows you to select the carrier you want full, light or otherwise. The issue this will cause is that unless you provide a bolt and test fire with a proven bcg you are at the mercy of the customer as to what he puts in the rifle. As we are all aware there are lots of parts out there that are out of spec. If you get a customer that puts a POS gun show BCG in the rifle and it does not run then you might have issues. I still think the no BCG is the way to go, you would just need to put in a disclaimer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebwake Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 You could offer several BCGs as an option in a drop down box. None, Standard milspec, JP steel low mass, JP alum, voodoo maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) 20" barrel with .750 contour all the way out to the end. NO TAC LATCH! Just a standard extra strength Nordic charging handle. Brass deflector. FA not needed. No comp, as there are way too many. Send threaded. Light carrier and adjustable gas. Everything Kurt said plus a 15" light handguard that is minimal diameter with no top rail. A port door would be ok but not a deal breaker to me if it doesn't have one. Hurley Edit to add titanium firing pin. Edited February 28, 2015 by HRider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NisilS14 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 What you could do is offer a complete basic upper, something a customer can throw on their lower and go. For instance, the base could be the upper, a barrel of your design, standard BGC, thread protector, a basic HG, etc. Maybe throw on a little laser MOA logo . On top of that offer options/upgrades that you feel would complement the upper you're offering. Options could be things like lightened BCG, muzzle device of your picks, maybe a couple different charging handles, handguards, etc. for customers to pick from. I think this would be your best way of putting out a product that is signature MOA Precision while still appealing to wider group of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 ^ Sounds like a headache from logistics and inventory aspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NisilS14 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 ^ Sounds like a headache from logistics and inventory aspects.Part of having a business. If you want to offer an in-stock, ready-to-ship product, initial investment is obviously required. That's just the nature of the beast. Tom could always have a "built to order" upper but customers will have to accept a longer wait time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) Port door is okay Forward Assist, not needed 18" rifle length, Black Hole Light, or Slim contour, no fluting. 9 inch twist. It will work with 69 grain bullets, and may improve accuracy with bullets such as Xtreme's 55 fmj. Seekins, Lancer, or Nordic handguard. All offer in long length if desired (I like vented handguards, aluminum, or carbon fiber) Rubber City Armory BCG with adjustable gas key. You can set the key for reduced gas, but reliability. Standard charging handle. No big latches, it simply encourages bad manipulation! This should work for an off the shelf upper. Side chargers may be desirable for some, but, if someone wants an "off the shelf" upper, they probably won't spring for a side charge upper. The same with the adjustable gas key, as opposed to a gas block. Edited March 1, 2015 by Dan Sierpina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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