What's happened to USPSA/IPSC clubs?

[jrbet83]

Nimitz is speaking out of line.

You can see where this can be cause for concern.

This is why I addressed it.

Thank you for addressing it. Much better than referring to shooters that leave as "scooters" and saying in no uncertain terms, that yes score sheets may get purposely loss, but it's not the MD that's doing it (like that makes it acceptable).

Just remember, there was another rumor that started not to long ago, that had some people getting very defensive, saying "he's not doing that", "Ive known him for years....." etc and that scandal turned out to be 100% true. So it's understandable to have questions/concerns with Nimitz comments, which I think we're all in agreement now were a trolling.

[remoandiris]

So there is not an explicit rule for the club, but there is tacit approval throughout the membership.

What club is this?

WTH??? Where do you get that there is tacit approval throughout the membership? Did you skip reading comprehension at your school?

You didn't answer the question. What club is this?

Some place you will likely never shoot, Port Malabar Rifle and Pistol Club, Palm Bay, Fl. Now that you have the information, what are you going to do with it? Jump to more bad conclusions?

Keep getting defensive.....it really proves your point.

You didn't answer the question. Now that you have the information, what are you going to do with it? Jump to more bad conclusions?

Edited February 27, 2015 by remoandiris

[Nik Habicht]

Hey folks,

it's perfectly ok to debate each other, but it's never acceptable to post "at" each other. This isn't the playground in kindergarten.......

Attitude
Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.
No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.
Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable.

Thank you.

[Guest]

Thank you for addressing it. Much better than referring to shooters that leave as "scooters" and saying in no uncertain terms, that yes score sheets may get purposely loss, but it's not the MD that's doing it (like that makes it acceptable).

Just remember, there was another rumor that started not to long ago, that had some people getting very defensive, saying "he's not doing that", "Ive known him for years....." etc and that scandal turned out to be 100% true. So it's understandable to have questions/concerns with Nimitz comments, which I think we're all in agreement now were a trolling.

I am a member and shoot at this club.

NOBODY is tossing any score sheets for any reason. Period. Not the MD, not the squad, not the person who enters the scores...not anybody.

Yes, I have heard the MD address tear down help during the pre-shoot briefing and jokingly say that, but it was a joke and most knew he wasn't serious.

Everybody who has been around USPSA for any length of time understands this would be totally unacceptable for a lot of reasons, and why.

And no, our MD (AA-Wolf) would not do that.

That is all I have to say about that.

[stickboy44]

In western Pennsylvania we like to use the term "Shoot and Scoot". That is what we call the people that think they payed the fee to shoot, why should they help! My wife and I was the MD for about 3 seasons. I also set up and tear down at 2 other clubs in my area. Every weekend it is the SAME people working their butts off to put on a good match. Shooters DO NOT know the time and effort that goes into setting up and running matches, then again I don't think that most of them care. Last year one of the clubs stopped the USPSA program due to lack of help. Every year at our section meetings we talk about how we can get more people to help but there is no real answer to this problem.

[bdpaz]

So let me combine all the suggestions/requirements here from those putting on matches into a description of the ideal shooter. The shooter must devote all day to the match - if he doesn't agree then he's a selfish a-hole. The shooter must participate equally with all other shooters in the set up and tear down - if he doesn't agree then he's a self centered a-hole. If he thinks he can pay a fee and then act as a consumer (you know, the way almost every other recreational activity works) he's just a flat out a-hole. Everyone must pay the match fee and help set up and tear down because letting some pay to "shoot and scoot" and some do the work in return for compensation is immoral and against the volunteer creed of USPSA.

When this approach doesn't generate enough shooters who buy into it to keep a match going then obviously it is the shooters who are wrong (and yes, probably a-holes as well).

[titandriver]

By gawd, I think you nailed it bdpaz! Excellent job summarizing!

[Prov1x]

So let me combine all the suggestions/requirements here from those putting on matches into a description of the ideal shooter. The shooter must devote all day to the match - if he doesn't agree then he's a selfish a-hole. The shooter must participate equally with all other shooters in the set up and tear down - if he doesn't agree then he's a self centered a-hole.

NO NOBODY SAID THAT.

If he thinks he can pay a fee and then act as a consumer (you know, the way almost every other recreational activity works) he's just a flat out a-hole.

NO AGAIN , NOBODY SAID THAT....

Everyone must pay the match fee and help set up and tear down because letting some pay to "shoot and scoot" and some do the work in return for compensation is immoral and against the volunteer creed of USPSA. NOBODY IS MAKING MONEY OFF OF MY MATCH EXCEPT FOR THE RANGE AND USPSA...

When this approach doesn't generate enough shooters who buy into it to keep a match going then obviously it is the shooters who are wrong (and yes, probably a-holes as well). SOMETIMES..

My responses are in BOLD, not yelling though, just stating to state the obvious.

[motosapiens]

So let me combine all the suggestions/requirements here from those putting on matches into a description of the ideal shooter. The shooter must devote all day to the match - if he doesn't agree then he's a selfish a-hole. The shooter must participate equally with all other shooters in the set up and tear down - if he doesn't agree then he's a self centered a-hole. If he thinks he can pay a fee and then act as a consumer (you know, the way almost every other recreational activity works) he's just a flat out a-hole. Everyone must pay the match fee and help set up and tear down because letting some pay to "shoot and scoot" and some do the work in return for compensation is immoral and against the volunteer creed of USPSA.

When this approach doesn't generate enough shooters who buy into it to keep a match going then obviously it is the shooters who are wrong (and yes, probably a-holes as well).

You are just being silly. We put on matches where everyone participates, and because everyone participates, the matches only take a few hours, leaving plenty of time to go wine-tasting with the missus, or work in the garden or whine on the internet.

I have participated in several other recreational activities, and it's the same story. If you want to just pay, have fun and leave, you will find that the competitions will get more expensive and less interesting, because it will just be a job for someone.

If you want to just pay money and do your thing and leave, then I highly recommend 5k run/walks, or yoga classes.

[Vlad]

If he thinks he can pay a fee and then act as a consumer (you know, the way almost every other recreational activity works) he's just a flat out a-hole.

You aren't my customer because I don't get payed to put on a match to you. THIS attitude is the wrongest one you could possibly bring the range. I'm not the mother of the shooters, I'm not their slave, and I put on a match because I give a crap (or used to). So anyone who comes a volunteer even and pretends to be a customer is actually a flat out a-hole.

The moment you show up at the range thinking your are owed ANYTHING because you figure out how to get your wallet our of your pocket you've lost the plot.

[stickboy44]

I'm not saying the shooter needs to devote all day to a match, but at some point more people need to step up and lend a hand. If you help or not I'm not calling any one an a-hole. When the volunteers are all burned out and quit, who is going to step up and run local matches? The shooters that don't help?

[Sarge]

WOW, it seems to be a deeper problem than I figured. I thought everybody but me had it all figured out how to get volunteers to beat down my door to help. Now I see I actually have it pretty good with my core group of about 10ish dedicated helpers. I need to put more time in my schedule this summer to get out to the other local clubs on setup days to help out. I agree it is asking a lot to have guys come out and help on the day before the match but some of mine come out and set up, then go to one of the pits and chrono, or practice, or just shoot for the hell of it. Some go shoot rifle. If it's a journey to get there, then make it productive in other ways.

As for setting up the day of a match. I applaud those of you that can get that done. It's just not the way many of us have ever done it or will ever do it. I like not being totally lost in the fog on match day. Just because I am the MD doesn't mean I shouldn't get a chance to shoot well. Same goes for my crew. So far ,it seems we all like knocking out the bulk of the work the day before the match.

None of us will ever fix the shoot and scoot types. There are just some who think they are above lending a helping hand. We all have some who will show up 15 minutes before we go hot and think it's perfectly normal. I have sworn many times that once registration closes you are SOL if you show up later. But who wants to drive an extra match fee away? Every dollar matters to some of us. All we can really do is make it known that what they are doing is NOT the way it should be done and drive on with what we came there to do. Put on the best match we can with the help that we have.

[Toolguy]

I don't shoot this kind of match so I don't know all the details - don't flame me too much please. I would like to offer a couple of thoughts on the subject.

What if it WAS OK to shoot and scoot? What if the entry fees were $5 or $10 more per shooter and someone DID get paid to set up/tear down? What if there were kids with lots of energy who wanted to earn some money but too young to get a job? Maybe up to high school age. What if the shooters and MD who are doing it now were to help them and coach them along? Maybe they would be teaching and training the next generation of shooters and MDs who could take over in due time? Some of them would likely get interested in shooting and want to continue. They would learn the rules and ethics by hanging around and hearing what everyone said during the match. Future of the sport type of thing.

In a year or 2 that could take some of the burden off the current staff and make it easier for them to shoot too. Also the current staff (anyone who helps) could shoot for free and get a few bucks to pay for reloading supplies, etc. It might ease tensions at the match too. More people might want to participate if all they had to do was shoot, paste and set targets without someone getting mad at them for not doing more. More people shooting = more money for the workers.

I don't know if any of this would work in real life, but haven't seen it mentioned before. OK - I'll get me coat...

[bdpaz]

I don't shoot this kind of match so I don't know all the details - don't flame me too much please. I would like to offer a couple of thoughts on the subject.

What if it WAS OK to shoot and scoot? What if the entry fees were $5 or $10 more per shooter and someone DID get paid to set up/tear down? What if there were kids with lots of energy who wanted to earn some money but too young to get a job? Maybe up to high school age. What if the shooters and MD who are doing it now were to help them and coach them along? Maybe they would be teaching and training the next generation of shooters and MDs who could take over in due time? Some of them would likely get interested in shooting and want to continue. They would learn the rules and ethics by hanging around and hearing what everyone said during the match. Future of the sport type of thing.

In a year or 2 that could take some of the burden off the current staff and make it easier for them to shoot too. Also the current staff (anyone who helps) could shoot for free and get a few bucks to pay for reloading supplies, etc. It might ease tensions at the match too. More people might want to participate if all they had to do was shoot, paste and set targets without someone getting mad at them for not doing more. More people shooting = more money for the workers.

I don't know if any of this would work in real life, but haven't seen it mentioned before. OK - I'll get me coat...

It does work in real life and without raised entry fees. Here in the Phoenix area the USPSA and steel matches have a set up/tear down crew that is compensated in some way (I can't speak for the IDPA matches). The others show up, pay, shoot, and leave. I don't know the specifics of each match, it may be just shooting the match for free, also getting a few bucks for lunch, or free shooting plus hookers and beer, but those who do the work get something for it. Some people have more money than time, others have more time than money so why not use a system that works for both? If you want to run a match where everyone pitches in, great, but that's a tough system to sell when it grows beyond you and your buddies.

And you are selling it. Volunteer event or not, when people pay a fee they have expectations. In other activities that I've been involved with that rely on volunteers the volunteers work the event and don't participate that day. It is up to you to make it clear that you don't see them as customers and that they must pitch in and help on match day. When I help with a match I absolutely do look at the shooters as my customers. When I pay to shoot a match I'm the customer and I expect the set up and tear down to be taken care of by the staff. This is not the only approach to running matches but my point is that neither is demanding that everyone cycle through and help as some sort of mandatory public service. Incorporating "Shoot and Scoot" shooters may offend many but to me it means more options.

Speaking directly to the idea of using kids to build for the future: I like the idea but we mostly have adult shooters with free time. Some have brought kids and grandkids out to help and I'll have to see if we can encourage that - of course by rewarding them in some way, not by saying it is expected!

[Chills1994]

The match director/stats person should be getting paid.

Oh...about 6 or 7 years ago, here in the St. Louis area rumor was that the match directors at one particular club/range were getting $250 for each match they put on, regardless of the number of shooters who showed up.

EDIT: "shooters and scooters", make their match fee $40. People who help out, make their match fee $20 or less.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Chills1994

[Jadeslade]

6-7 hours from set up 5 stages. and be off the range. 1:45 later than normal 1 PM cause rain and cold. It goes in cycles. Today we had enough to do it, but the day before not gonna happen here for USPSA yes for some 3 Gun Nation stages, but those are still a novelty so higher interest day before.

[shooterDrew]

I also think it's good to compensate the people who set up before a match (match fee covered, ect). One of the clubs about an hour away from me does have an rsvp program. Gotta give notice that you will help in advance and then be there by a specified time to qualify for free match. Seems to work well. I rarely make it for set up, thought not because I feel entitled to having the match set up for me. With 3 very young children Saturday mornings can be hectic to say the least and if I want to be able to shoot at all I need to pitch in at home as well. Hopefully I will be able to help more as they get older. Pasting and resetting is a no brainer, it's plain rude to sit back and not participate in that during a match, regardless of match size/level. I can say that I definitely help with tear down. That goes like a lot have mentioned where your squad tears down the stage where you finish. Unless you have a legit issue that is the exception and not the rule I would think tear down is an expected part of the match. Not to mention it takes almost no time at all.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited March 1, 2015 by shooterDrew

[Chuck Anderson]

So there is not an explicit rule for the club, but there is tacit approval throughout the membership.

What club is this?

WTH??? Where do you get that there is tacit approval throughout the membership? Did you skip reading comprehension at your school?

You didn't answer the question. What club is this?

Some place you will likely never shoot, Port Malabar Rifle and Pistol Club, Palm Bay, Fl. Now that you have the information, what are you going to do with it? Jump to more bad conclusions?

I spend a fair amount of time travelling. I'm hopping a plane Friday and shooting a match in West Virginia on Saturday. I need to be there anyway and figured it could be fun to meet a bunch of new shooters and see the ones there I already know. I've done that several times when I have to travel for work as well. I'm in Florida on a regular basis, usually at least once or twice a year, and have shot in Florida at least a half dozen times. But you are definitely right. I will likely never shoot at Port Malabar Rifle and Pistol Club. I do this for fun and with what I see here, it doesn't sound like fun to me.

[Chuck Anderson]

I don't shoot this kind of match so I don't know all the details - don't flame me too much please. I would like to offer a couple of thoughts on the subject.

What if it WAS OK to shoot and scoot? What if the entry fees were $5 or $10 more per shooter and someone DID get paid to set up/tear down? What if there were kids with lots of energy who wanted to earn some money but too young to get a job? Maybe up to high school age. What if the shooters and MD who are doing it now were to help them and coach them along? Maybe they would be teaching and training the next generation of shooters and MDs who could take over in due time? Some of them would likely get interested in shooting and want to continue. They would learn the rules and ethics by hanging around and hearing what everyone said during the match. Future of the sport type of thing.

In a year or 2 that could take some of the burden off the current staff and make it easier for them to shoot too. Also the current staff (anyone who helps) could shoot for free and get a few bucks to pay for reloading supplies, etc. It might ease tensions at the match too. More people might want to participate if all they had to do was shoot, paste and set targets without someone getting mad at them for not doing more. More people shooting = more money for the workers.

I don't know if any of this would work in real life, but haven't seen it mentioned before. OK - I'll get me coat...

We've been doing this in my section for at least 10 years. Added a buck or two to the match fee for everyone and a couple guys do handle teardown for the extra money. To be honest, I've forgotten how to take a match apart because it's been so long. Seeing that work for so long there are some pluses and minuses. The upside is it seems to keep everyone happy. The downside is you lose new people coming into the sport and learning that work ethic needed in other locations, or even for the times when our helpers aren't available.

[thermobollocks]

I work two of the local matches, and I try to come early enough to setup at least one more local match than that per month. As a person that gets me outside and working, as a shooter that gets me the esteem of people who can see I'm not a sack of garbage, and as a businessman that gets me a Lincoln here or there at the various matches across the section. It's a winning proposition.

[motosapiens]

Doh. After posting in this thread a few times, I ironically slacked today, and showed up only 60 mins early instead of 90, and everything was already set up except a couple guys working on the 2nd classifier. I guess the point is if everyone generally pitches in for setup and teardown, there is a little extra room for that to happen. It was still very nice to spend some time socializing and catching up with folks that don't shoot much in the winter (it was a beautiful 60 degree spring day here today, so there was a good crowd).

[2MoreChains]

Doh. After posting in this thread a few times, I ironically slacked today, and showed up only 60 mins early instead of 90, and everything was already set up except a couple guys working on the 2nd classifier. I guess the point is if everyone generally pitches in for setup and teardown, there is a little extra room for that to happen. It was still very nice to spend some time socializing and catching up with folks that don't shoot much in the winter (it was a beautiful 60 degree spring day here today, so there was a good crowd).

Confession is good for the soul (but if he didn't, I was going to out Moto...). We're one of those clubs that sets up the day of the match, usually 4 long courses and 2 classifiers. The classifiers are easy. I just drop off the materials needed for the stage using the ATV/trailer and turn it over to one of the volunteers. The long courses may require a little more directing traffic especially if there are certain things I'm trying to achieve with the stage (angles, where you can see certain targets from, etc.). But we usually have enough people that know what they are doing that we can build 2-3 stages at the same time, with me (MD/stage designer) bouncing from stage to stage to check on the work. We can usually get all six stages set up in about an hour, maybe 1.5 if the stages are really complicated.

It works best if there are two or three stage designers for the match. That way the designer can take charge of his/her own stage and the rest of the folks divide and conquer to carry materials and set targets. As a lot of people have mentioned, its a group effort. I'd say by the height of setup we usually have 12-15 people there, and the remainder of the crowd (25-40) trickle in between 30-45 minutes before the shooter's meeting starts.

[MarkCO]

It works best if there are two or three stage designers for the match. That way the designer can take charge of his/her own stage and the rest of the folks divide and conquer to carry materials and set targets. As a lot of people have mentioned, its a group effort. I'd say by the height of setup we usually have 12-15 people there, and the remainder of the crowd (25-40) trickle in between 30-45 minutes before the shooter's meeting starts.

We are about the same. But those 12-15 people are always the same people and the 25-40 are always the same, and the ones more apt to shoot and scoot.

[2MoreChains]

It works best if there are two or three stage designers for the match. That way the designer can take charge of his/her own stage and the rest of the folks divide and conquer to carry materials and set targets. As a lot of people have mentioned, its a group effort. I'd say by the height of setup we usually have 12-15 people there, and the remainder of the crowd (25-40) trickle in between 30-45 minutes before the shooter's meeting starts.

We are about the same. But those 12-15 people are always the same people and the 25-40 are always the same, and the ones more apt to shoot and scoot.

We can loan you Moto for a few matches. He'll have all the scooters mocked into submission within fairly short order.

[Richc2048]

I joined Uspsa a little less than a year ago. I can count on one hand how many times i couldn't make it to setup due to three kids. I shoot at least one a weekend. (Lucky in colorado to have so many clubs) I am on bod at one of them.

I think it's helped my shooting tremendously being eager to help. I seemed to have clicked with the people tat have been doing this for a while.

I truly believe I get the support I get from people because I try to help. Knowing all the BOD guys and getting invited to practice with them helped my get to B in just over 6 months.

I've definitely surpassed many of the "consumer shooters" that started around my time.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Richc2048