What's happened to USPSA/IPSC clubs?

[Vlad]

Over here average match fee is $15-20 for a 6-7 stage match. Keep in mind, everything is more expensive, specially land, so in my case I end up paying quite a bit of money back to the club hosting it. We also pay back about 25%-35% as prizes for division and class placement.

As a reference point, NJ median house value is $285k, Idaho $165k, and I'll bet you get more for that money.

[Sarge]

I find that many people are willing to help once the need is explained to them, and it quickly becomes part of the socializing and fun.

If you can tell me what witchcraft you have done, let me know. This has not been my experience, after years of patiently and gently explaining it to people.

Well, you are in jersey, and I am in idaho. It's been my experience that people are alot more friendly and helpful here, which is part of why I live here. Probably just because there's less traffic, frustration, pollution, etc...

I suppose the rational solution if people aren't willing to help is to make MD a paid position, raising the entry fees a couple bucks if necessary. If the MD made $50 or so each match to spend on ammo, beer and topless girls, it might make the job less of a thankless chore.

i don't want to see the topless girls you get for that price!

[gittist]

I find that many people are willing to help once the need is explained to them, and it quickly becomes part of the socializing and fun.

If you can tell me what witchcraft you have done, let me know. This has not been my experience, after years of patiently and gently explaining it to people.

Well, you are in jersey, and I am in idaho. It's been my experience that people are alot more friendly and helpful here, which is part of why I live here. Probably just because there's less traffic, frustration, pollution, etc...

I suppose the rational solution if people aren't willing to help is to make MD a paid position, raising the entry fees a couple bucks if necessary. If the MD made $50 or so each match to spend on ammo, beer and topless girls, it might make the job less of a thankless chore.

i don't want to see the topless girls you get for that price!

topless means flat chested, right? I know, don't give up my day job...

[DWNZRO]

Our range almost lost IDPA as a discipline last year. 2 guys and their better halves had been doing it for about 15 years, obviously they were burnt out and just wanted to shoot. So me and an older guy who got me started took over so we wouldn't lose it. Our first year was pretty rough, but we learned a lot. Made some changes for this year and we'll see how it works out. Luckily the other guys are always on call for questions, clarifications, etc.

So for me, being a young and inexperienced shooter, it was paramount to have someone experienced to co-MD with. I just couldn't stand the thought of losing something I had just grown to love. For me, putting in 1 night a month to design stages and 1 day a month (the day before) to set up was worth it.

Now the hardest part for me being an MD is blocking out all the stress, frustration, nagging, problem solving, etc. when it comes time for me to shoot.

[MarkCO]

Our range almost lost IDPA as a discipline last year. 2 guys and their better halves had been doing it for about 15 years, obviously they were burnt out and just wanted to shoot. So me and an older guy who got me started took over so we wouldn't lose it. Our first year was pretty rough, but we learned a lot. Made some changes for this year and we'll see how it works out. Luckily the other guys are always on call for questions, clarifications, etc.

So for me, being a young and inexperienced shooter, it was paramount to have someone experienced to co-MD with. I just couldn't stand the thought of losing something I had just grown to love. For me, putting in 1 night a month to design stages and 1 day a month (the day before) to set up was worth it.

Now the hardest part for me being an MD is blocking out all the stress, frustration, nagging, problem solving, etc. when it comes time for me to shoot.

You rock! and we need 1,000 more like you.

Just a longtime MD hint...I set-up, do the shooters meeting then the new shooters sometimes. After that, I take a 15 minute break, load my mags and get relaxed. I usually then just go shoot through. I'll put myself 2nd or third in the order and just shoot, load mags and move to the next stage. If I need to go make a call, etc. I take 10 afterwards. It has helped me to take those hat switching breaks.

[PatriotMRD]

I find that many people are willing to help once the need is explained to them, and it quickly becomes part of the socializing and fun.

If you can tell me what witchcraft you have done, let me know. This has not been my experience, after years of patiently and gently explaining it to people.

Well, you are in jersey, and I am in idaho. It's been my experience that people are alot more friendly and helpful here, which is part of why I live here. Probably just because there's less traffic, frustration, pollution, etc...

I suppose the rational solution if people aren't willing to help is to make MD a paid position, raising the entry fees a couple bucks if necessary. If the MD made $50 or so each match to spend on ammo, beer and topless girls, it might make the job less of a thankless chore.

i don't want to see the topless girls you get for that price!

+1

I don't think I want to see those "girls". Especially topless.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

IMHO the volunteer system is broken. Everyone expects to just pay 20 or 30 and show up and shoot like its a business. Usually now its just a bunch of old guys doing the setup and scoring. Is saving 20 worth it for people to come out and help? Nope

If I had to pay $30, I would shoot like it's a business too. we pay $7-15 here.

For $30 you should be able to pay an MD and a setup crew and have plenty leftover for supplies, the club, etc...

That is a double edged sword... If a guy pays $30 to shoot and knows there is paid staff, he is not going to lift a finger to help, tape, reset, nothing! "you are paid to run my match! F off!"

Let's stick with the volunteer format and set the expectation to new shooters that we are all paying the same to be here so help out!

[racknrider]

Mainly shoot IDPA. I do set-up at my club but not any of the other clubs where I shoot. Just a matter of time and convenience. It is much easier to pay my $10-15 and just shoot and relax. I will SO if asked, it doesn't bother me. If guys that do the work at other clubs come to our match, we don't ask them to help so they can just enjoy shooting. Everyone does tear down at the end. My biggest disappointment is being in a club with 600+ members and having only 3 or 4 show up for a match.

[45 Raven]

This certainly isn't specific to USPSA/IPSC, but it is pretty easy for the enthusiasm to wear thin when a successful match depends on the work of 10% or less of the membership.

It's bad enough that there are very few who will volunteer to design, set-up, and officiate at matches.

But when that mind-set begins to migrate into the actual match itself and a small hand full of the shooters are doing ALL the brass pick-up, resetting ALL the steel targets, taping ALL the paper targets, resetting ALL the movers and miscellaneous props ALL the time while the remaining 90% watch, it shouldn't be hard to figure out why participation begins to wane.

I know there are exceptions, and I know that "one size doesn't fit all". But this IS what happens at some matches and in some clubs. It never seems to happen overnight. It is a gradual process. Like cancer.

Next time you go to a match, take a few minutes and observe. There may likely be a group of "royalty" who are the best shooters around. Somehow some, (certainly not all) of them seem to think they are exempt from menial tasks like setting up pepper poppers or taping targets. There are others who from the time they joined the club and began shooting have never so much as lifted a finger to help with ANYTHING. They just shoot - that's all. Others are social animals and don't pay any attention at all to when it might be their turn to do a little work.

The only way to correct it is to call them on it. If it is their turn to tape, set targets, pick up brass, etc, they need to do it. And if they don't do it, their scorecard should be put to the bottom of the pile. Regardless of WHO they are, And that policy should be consistently enforced ALL the time. It won't take long before they either get it and start helping out, or move on to another club or a different shooting discipline. And if they would rather do that than HELP? Good riddance.

Just my opinion. I am certain others feel differently.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Mainly shoot IDPA. I do set-up at my club but not any of the other clubs where I shoot. Just a matter of time and convenience. It is much easier to pay my $10-15 and just shoot and relax. I will SO if asked, it doesn't bother me. If guys that do the work at other clubs come to our match, we don't ask them to help so they can just enjoy shooting. Everyone does tear down at the end. My biggest disappointment is being in a club with 600+ members and having only 3 or 4 show up for a match.

So you pay your $10 $15 to shoot and relax, perhaps the same $10-$15 the other guys pay to show up early and set up your stages and shoot.

I get it when life gets in the way. By no means am I a model citizen when it comes to always helping set up. But let's not kid ourselves that we are " customers" because we pay a match fee.

[cas]

They're tired of sending money to USPSA for what seems like little or nothing in return. The club(s) didn't stop having matches, just USPSA matches. Not sure why it hasn't been said, it's not a secret.

[mach1soldier]

Maybe I shoot with a bunch of dicks, but if you don't paste or reset targets and your not cleaning mags or within 4 people of shooting, you WILL get called out.

I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm thankful someone is willing to setup and run matches. I drive a couple hours each match so setup isn't possible but I do help teardown.

Edited February 25, 2015 by mach1soldier

[Ultimo-Hombre]

This certainly isn't specific to USPSA/IPSC, but it is pretty easy for the enthusiasm to wear thin when a successful match depends on the work of 10% or less of the membership.

It's bad enough that there are very few who will volunteer to design, set-up, and officiate at matches.

But when that mind-set begins to migrate into the actual match itself and a small hand full of the shooters are doing ALL the brass pick-up, resetting ALL the steel targets, taping ALL the paper targets, resetting ALL the movers and miscellaneous props ALL the time while the remaining 90% watch, it shouldn't be hard to figure out why participation begins to wane.

I know there are exceptions, and I know that "one size doesn't fit all". But this IS what happens at some matches and in some clubs. It never seems to happen overnight. It is a gradual process. Like cancer.

Next time you go to a match, take a few minutes and observe. There may likely be a group of "royalty" who are the best shooters around. Somehow some, (certainly not all) of them seem to think they are exempt from menial tasks like setting up pepper poppers or taping targets. There are others who from the time they joined the club and began shooting have never so much as lifted a finger to help with ANYTHING. They just shoot - that's all. Others are social animals and don't pay any attention at all to when it might be their turn to do a little work.

The only way to correct it is to call them on it. If it is their turn to tape, set targets, pick up brass, etc, they need to do it. And if they don't do it, their scorecard should be put to the bottom of the pile. Regardless of WHO they are, And that policy should be consistently enforced ALL the time. It won't take long before they either get it and start helping out, or move on to another club or a different shooting discipline. And if they would rather do that than HELP? Good riddance.

Just my opinion. I am certain others feel differently.

I hear ya amigo, but locally here some of the hardest working guys are also the top shooters who also do the

Most work to make our matches happen!

There is the occasional " royalty " guy but most all support our sport in their own way.

It comes down to expectations. Most guys want to do the right thing, they often just don't know what that is.

[v1911]

While I don't MD, I do help set up and tear down. It's very frustrating to have only 4-5 people set up / tear down while the rest of the 30+ shooters decide to "shoot and scoot". And when you only have 3-4 people setting up 5-6 stages the morning of a shoot, you're tired before the 1st shot is even fired.

[45 Raven]

Ultimo-Hombre said:

"I hear ya amigo, but locally here some of the hardest working guys are also the top shooters who also do the

Most work to make our matches happen!"

"There is the occasional " royalty " guy but most all support our sport in their own way.
It comes down to expectations. Most guys want to do the right thing, they often just don't know what that is."

Well put. And I hope nobody thinks my post was pointed at the top shooters. I can recite numerous matches in our area when it is the top shooters doing the large majority of the work all the time.

It's just important to remember that if you took the "top" 100 shooters, it's quite likely that the statistics apply to them equally.

10 or 15 of those top 100 are doing 85% to 90% of the WORK BEING DONE BY THE TOP 100 SHOOTERS.

As you said, most guys want to do the right thing. They just need to know what the right thing is. It's up to the folks doing the work and running the matches to share that information, so the work gets spread around. It's called accountability!

Edited February 25, 2015 by 45 Raven

[Sarge]

IBTL

[atbarr]

Why?

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Why would this get locked?

[Nik Habicht]

IMHO the volunteer system is broken. Everyone expects to just pay 20 or 30 and show up and shoot like its a business. Usually now its just a bunch of old guys doing the setup and scoring. Is saving 20 worth it for people to come out and help? Nope

If I had to pay $30, I would shoot like it's a business too. we pay $7-15 here.

For $30 you should be able to pay an MD and a setup crew and have plenty leftover for supplies, the club, etc...

How the heck do you guys manage that? Figure activity fees alone are $3/head, $60 or so for targets, $10 for paint, $15 for tape, a few bucks for batteries, target bags, screws, rope, wire, other consumables, and we haven't even touched prop purchases or replacements or contributions to the hosting club?

[Sandbagger123]

IMHO the volunteer system is broken. Everyone expects to just pay 20 or 30 and show up and shoot like its a business. Usually now its just a bunch of old guys doing the setup and scoring. Is saving 20 worth it for people to come out and help? Nope

If I had to pay $30, I would shoot like it's a business too. we pay $7-15 here.

For $30 you should be able to pay an MD and a setup crew and have plenty leftover for supplies, the club, etc...

That is a double edged sword... If a guy pays $30 to shoot and knows there is paid staff, he is not going to lift a finger to help, tape, reset, nothing! "you are paid to run my match! F off!"

Let's stick with the volunteer format and set the expectation to new shooters that we are all paying the same to be here so help out!

uspsa stages are usually more complicated to set up thus many club set up the day before or even throughout the week. Getting people to come and set up the day before is the issue. once people get there there are few issues about taping and setting or even tearing down at the end. its because they are already there.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

IMHO the volunteer system is broken. Everyone expects to just pay 20 or 30 and show up and shoot like its a business. Usually now its just a bunch of old guys doing the setup and scoring. Is saving 20 worth it for people to come out and help? Nope

If I had to pay $30, I would shoot like it's a business too. we pay $7-15 here.

For $30 you should be able to pay an MD and a setup crew and have plenty leftover for supplies, the club, etc...

That is a double edged sword... If a guy pays $30 to shoot and knows there is paid staff, he is not going to lift a finger to help, tape, reset, nothing! "you are paid to run my match! F off!"

Let's stick with the volunteer format and set the expectation to new shooters that we are all paying the same to be here so help out!

uspsa stages are usually more complicated to set up thus many club set up the day before or even throughout the week. Getting people to come and set up the day before is the issue. once people get there there are few issues about taping and setting or even tearing down at the end. its because they are already there.

For level one matches here we never set up ahead of time.

Morning of.

[motosapiens]

IMHO the volunteer system is broken. Everyone expects to just pay 20 or 30 and show up and shoot like its a business. Usually now its just a bunch of old guys doing the setup and scoring. Is saving 20 worth it for people to come out and help? Nope

If I had to pay $30, I would shoot like it's a business too. we pay $7-15 here.

For $30 you should be able to pay an MD and a setup crew and have plenty leftover for supplies, the club, etc...

How the heck do you guys manage that? Figure activity fees alone are $3/head, $60 or so for targets, $10 for paint, $15 for tape, a few bucks for batteries, target bags, screws, rope, wire, other consumables, and we haven't even touched prop purchases or replacements or contributions to the hosting club?

40 guys at $10/members $15 non-members is $500-ish bucks. After all consumables and activity fees you'd still be around $300+ for a match.

I'm sure the Discipline Director at our club will eventually put his 2 cents in and correct me (I only MD the weekly steel matches @ $3/members, $5/non-members), but one of the things they have come up with locally is to have rotating MD's for a quarter at a time, and often it's 2 guys sharing the duties. It seems easier to get people to step up for a limited time commitment.

We'd still be in a world of hurt if our Discipline Director lost interest, or was killed doing catch-and-flip at ULSC, but I'm hoping that having other people stepping up for a few matches at a time takes some of the pressure off him.

This is an interesting discussion, and it makes even mo bettah gladdah than I already was to live in Idaho, shoot for cheap, own whatever guns I want, have easy access to several ranges, matches every week throughout the year, etc... etc...

I think if we tried to setup the day before a match we'd have serious problems tho:

1. it would all blow over.

2. it would be a real pain in the butt for the folks that set up.

We just show up 90 mins early, get a guy to hold the diagram and take the lead for each stage, and set it the #*% up. the stage designers usually bounce around clarifying their intent. It's kind of a nice time to chit-chat and catch up with people while carrying things back and forth and fine-tuning.

[Sarge]

One of our local clubs sets up on match day. It sucks because they like to have great stages. Sometimes we don't shoot until after 11. By then it's 95 degrees and 95% humidity. And it really sucks being in the 20 plus people trying to set everything up while 50 stand around and bullshit.

I avoid that at my match by setting up the day before and paying those that come out to help me. This way I don't have to bust my hump for the enjoyment of others to watch. We start on time and get to sleep at least a little longer.

[DWNZRO]

Our range almost lost IDPA as a discipline last year. 2 guys and their better halves had been doing it for about 15 years, obviously they were burnt out and just wanted to shoot. So me and an older guy who got me started took over so we wouldn't lose it. Our first year was pretty rough, but we learned a lot. Made some changes for this year and we'll see how it works out. Luckily the other guys are always on call for questions, clarifications, etc.

So for me, being a young and inexperienced shooter, it was paramount to have someone experienced to co-MD with. I just couldn't stand the thought of losing something I had just grown to love. For me, putting in 1 night a month to design stages and 1 day a month (the day before) to set up was worth it.

Now the hardest part for me being an MD is blocking out all the stress, frustration, nagging, problem solving, etc. when it comes time for me to shoot.

You rock! and we need 1,000 more like you.

Just a longtime MD hint...I set-up, do the shooters meeting then the new shooters sometimes. After that, I take a 15 minute break, load my mags and get relaxed. I usually then just go shoot through. I'll put myself 2nd or third in the order and just shoot, load mags and move to the next stage. If I need to go make a call, etc. I take 10 afterwards. It has helped me to take those hat switching breaks.

That's a great point. I definitely could use some time to myself before the match. Thanks!

We do all our set up the day before but we do an RO/SO walk through on each stage the morning of. I'd prefer that they have a walk though after set up, possibly even shoot that day. It would definitely help reduce the stress of match day.

[Vlad]

I avoid that at my match by setting up the day before and paying those that come out to help me. This way I don't have to bust my hump for the enjoyment of others to watch. We start on time and get to sleep at least a little longer.

For us that is impossible. For one, I live nearly 1 hour away from the range where I ran the a match (accounting for traffic) and taking an extra half day from my life and finding another 5-6 people do it would be a non-starter. For another, this club has 2500+ members, the club would never allow us to take up part of the range for an extra half a day when no one is even using it and reduce the available shooting space for the membership. Lastly, some of our crap would probably get stolen or destroyed, again ... 2500 members, some are bound to be assholes.