Why no Major in Production?

[DavidMarlow]

Forgive me if this has been covered, but a search with "production" and "major" yielded nothing on this topic. Heck for all I know, I've already asked this myself. If it has been covered elsewhere, I won't be butthurt if mods delete this post after pointing me in the right direction.

Why doesn't USPSA recognize major PF in Production division? The only thing I could come up with is that it might reduce the number of Production shooters running 9mm, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. I know, we have L-10, but to be competitive there, you're talking different mag pouches and holster. It seems odd that USPSA would even entertain the idea of a Production Optics division to accomodate slide-mounted RDS when they are still such a small segment of the firearms industry, yet don't have accomodations for the large number of people who own pistols in .40 and .45 who don't want to spend the money on aftermarket work and race holsters or mag pouches.

It would seem to me that a way to get new members would be to let them run their "calibers than begin with a 4" and be competitive with common equipment.

Edited January 22, 2015 by DavidMarlow

[ktm300]

Production works as it is. The saying "Don't fix it if its not broke" comes to mind.

You can shoot a .40 or .45 loaded to minor and do just fine as there is no penalty for round count. .45 loaded to minor PF is a blast to shoot.

9mm keeps the cost down for folks that shoot production.

If you could shoot major why would anyone shoot minor? You don't see a whole lot of folks shooting Limited Minor.

[motosapiens]

I shoot .40 minor in production. it works excellent.

fwiw, I don't think you need a race holster or forward mag pouches to be competitive in L10.

[DavidMarlow]

If you could shoot major why would anyone shoot minor? You don't see a whole lot of folks shooting Limited Minor.

That's the reason I suspected. .45 loaded down to minor, huh? I may have to try that. Flight time measured with a sun dial. That could be fun. I wonder if I could use Ramshot Silhouette for that so I don't have to buy a different powder. TIME TO DO SOME LOOKING!!

Edited January 22, 2015 by DavidMarlow

[Sarge]

Not to mention a few guns would get blown up by guys who heard about something called 9MAJOR! Lol

[rowdyb]

I second the opinion you can shoot L 10 with a production style belt holster and regular mag pouches. I've done it. I classified B in L10 shooting minor as well.

If it's fun for you, do it.

[teros135]

If you could shoot major why would anyone shoot minor? You don't see a whole lot of folks shooting Limited Minor.

That's the reason I suspected. .45 loaded down to minor, huh? I may have to try that. Flight time measured with a sun dial. That could be fun. I wonder if I could use Ramshot Silhouette for that so I don't have to buy a different powder. TIME TO DO SOME LOOKING!!

Actually, 180 grain .40s loaded to about 730 fps (131 PF) shoots really well and has recoil as good or better than 9mm minor, and accurate. Flight time is, well, not much (about .08 sec at 20 yards, if my math is right). I use TiteGroup and Bullseye, which are fairly fast powders. Also works with slower powders, but there's a bit more kick due to the increased gas. I've had a lot of fun with it.

[AJE]

I haven't shot .40 minor in USPSA but I use it for GSSF (about 145 PF). It works well enough that I might do it when I get my G35 as well.

[teros135]

I second the opinion you can shoot L 10 with a production style belt holster and regular mag pouches. I've done it. I classified B in L10 shooting minor as well.

If it's fun for you, do it.

I've classified in Lim10 and Open using a Glock 35 (minor loads) and standard Production DOH holster and mag holder placement (behind the hip bone), with hicaps for Open. Same class I'm in for Prod and Lim. I do like Major scoring, when it's available, but apparently it isn't critical for us C-level folks.

Like rowdyb said, if you're having fun, go for it.

The whole "but [insert name of gun, round, or gear here] isn't competitive" probably doesn't mean much until you're at GM, or maybe M. I still can't figure out what that's about. If we're in a particular class, that's where we compete, yes? We're "competitive" vs others in our own class. Luckily we don't have to "compete" with those in higher classes, until of course we get there ourselves, and then we "compete" at that level, which has now become our current class - because we've earned it.

Edited January 23, 2015 by teros135

[Nik Habicht]

Bottom line, really -- because all the other divisions recognize major, and five is enough.....

[motosapiens]

If we're in a particular class, that's where we compete, yes? We're "competitive" vs others in our own class. Luckily we don't have to "compete" with those in higher classes, until of course we get there ourselves, and then we "compete" at that level, which has now become our current class - because we've earned it.

Some people feel that way. I don't. To me it seems like 'everyone gets a medal for effort'. I compete to try to improve my own skills and performance. Looking at overall results gives me a much better gauge of how I'm doing than looking at a 'class' comprised only of other people who haven't practiced enough to get classed higher.

You can improve your own skills (and measure that improvement using match scores and classifier scores) with *any* gun, and the things you learn with that gun will generally translate entirely to a more competitive rig.

Regarding 40 minor, I shoot 180 gr fps, and since I'm slender and spry for a man in his 50's, my joke is I have to be careful to avoid getting downrange of myself if I leave a position too quickly after shooting.

[PKT1106]

Production is supposed to be simple. 9mm is ubiquitous and not all factory 9mm makes major. Let's not mess with it, OK.

[frag316]

I think PKT's answer comes closest to answering the OP's question without drifting into loads and gear set-up for L10.

Production was intended to be more of a gateway drug into USPSA and to make things simple for the new shooter. You buy a stock gun, some spare mags, holster and pouches, factory ammo and you can shoot a match. Scoring minor only makes it easier for the new shooter to comprehend, because there's no competitive advantage for a major PF shooter. Since everyone competes heads-up within divisions (USPSA officially says they don't recognize overall match winners across divisions), you can see how the winner scored and compare how the new shooter scored and get an idea of where they got their points and you didn't get yours and what your HF is compared to the winner without having to understand major/minor PF scoring differences.

After that, you can get more complicated with power factors and going deeper into equipment and all of that stuff, as you gain experience in the sport.

On the flip side, if you wind up being one of the goofy folks who just don't like USPSA, you haven't dropped $1500-$TEXAS on an Open/Limited/L10 gun and gear which doesn't translate into either practical use or (m)any other shooting discipline(s).

[9146gt]

If you could shoot major why would anyone shoot minor? You don't see a whole lot of folks shooting Limited Minor.

That's the reason I suspected. .45 loaded down to minor, huh? I may have to try that. Flight time measured with a sun dial. That could be fun. I wonder if I could use Ramshot Silhouette for that so I don't have to buy a different powder. TIME TO DO SOME LOOKING!!

So how is it safe to blowup an Open gun but not a Production????

Tom

[Parallax3D]

Production is supposed to be simple. 9mm is ubiquitous and not all factory 9mm makes major. Let's not mess with it, OK.

BINGO!!

In Production you are supposed to be able to use "off the shelf", (PRODUCTION!!), guns and ammo. Pretty much every gun on the Prod. list is available in 9mm, and commercial 9mm ammo generally makes minor PF easily.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Production is a simple, entry division, if you made major you would have to shoot major to be competitive.. this is a place for the millions of 9mm service weapons out there to compete on a level playing field. if you have a 40, you can still shoot it, or you can down load it to minor, or you can shoot limited 10 with it. ...

also FYI.. if you pick up a glock 23 and shoot certain factory 40 loads you MAY NOT be making major same of course for the 27 and all other shorty forty's.

[ktm300]

On the equipment side, some guy named Nils shoots limited pretty well without a race holster etc.

[2MoreChains]

So hypothetically, say you could declare major PF for Production with .357Sig, .40 or .45. How would that work, download to 8 rnds for major?

Meh, personally if there's going to be a change I'd rather see the B-zone be worth 4 pts instead of 3 in minor scoring.

[L3324temp]

Please stop trying to change production.

[Glk21C]

So hypothetically, say you could declare major PF for Production with .357Sig, .40 or .45. How would that work, download to 8 rnds for major?

Meh, personally if there's going to be a change I'd rather see the B-zone be worth 4 pts instead of 3 in minor scoring.

Straight from the rule book, there is no major scoring in Production.

"— Anyone signing up for Production is declaring minor regardless if the ammunition makes major at the chronograph. Should they be moved to another division, they will shoot minor for the entire match or sub-minor should their ammo fail to meet the minimum."

[motosapiens]

So hypothetically, say you could declare major PF for Production with .357Sig, .40 or .45. How would that work, download to 8 rnds for major?

Meh, personally if there's going to be a change I'd rather see the B-zone be worth 4 pts instead of 3 in minor scoring.

Straight from the rule book, there is no major scoring in Production.

"— Anyone signing up for Production is declaring minor regardless if the ammunition makes major at the chronograph. Should they be moved to another division, they will shoot minor for the entire match or sub-minor should their ammo fail to meet the minimum."

Lol, perhaps the word 'hypothetically' didn't display on your screen.

We all know the current rules, we're discussing 'hypothetical' (hope that shows up on your screen) rules that would allow major and whether or not that is a brilliant or horrible idea.

[teros135]

So hypothetically, say you could declare major PF for Production with .357Sig, .40 or .45. How would that work, download to 8 rnds for major?

Meh, personally if there's going to be a change I'd rather see the B-zone be worth 4 pts instead of 3 in minor scoring.

"Hypothetically" is just a dodge in this conversation, isn't it? There's no major PF in Production, so you can't "hypothetically" declare Major for Prod. There's no way to "work" it. There's no downloading to x rounds, there's no Major.

There's no change in Production on the horizon, at least that most of us are aware of. Some people keep coming up with ways to "improve" Production, but there haven't been any good reasons to do so, and no significant support for any of it.

Let's let this go. The OP asked a direct question and got direct answers. And then, here we go again, another way to "fix" Production. Sheesh.

[rowdyb]

I love production as is. Go ahead now and shoot major in it and just don't get any scoring benefit. Seems simple. Please, no production changes.

[Thomas H]

Production is supposed to be simple. 9mm is ubiquitous and not all factory 9mm makes major. Let's not mess with it, OK.

What factory 9mm makes major? (Looking around, even +P+ ammo doesn't make major.)

Agree with many people above---Production is not only wildly successful as is, but is a ton of fun, as is. Adding major/minor scoring (with a 10-round limit on everyone) would significantly change the division. (Does ANYONE shoot L-10 minor? There's a reason for that...)

[Sarge]

With this and the Production optics assault on Production it makes me wonder. It's the easiest, cheapest division to get started in, it was created to get more shooters in the sport without having to build race guns, it's original intent was to try to stay relatively stock.

So why the push to change it? Leave it as is. There are divisions for everything else that keeps getting brought up.