Re-thinking rifle zero, Maximum Point Blank Range

[Wild Gene]

Does anyone Zero their rifle to Maximum Point Blank Range?

By MPBR, I mean you take the size of the vital area you want to hit, say 12". You sight in you rifle so that the bullet trajectory is no more than 6" above or below the line of sight. This way, you can hold dead center any 12" target out to a given range and hit the target.

For example:

Your load is (using the federal ballistic calculator) .223, 55 grain with a bc of .255 traveling at 3,200 fps. You would be able to sight your rifle in at 325 yards and hold dead center on a 12" target out to around 380 yards.

If you had an 8" target, you would sight in at 275 yards and be able to hold dead on for targets our to 320 yards (never more than 4"above or below the line of sight). Conversely, on a rifle with the scope mounted 2.5" above the line of sight, this would put you only around 1" low on a target at 25 yards (unexpected benefit).

I believe this would be similar to the concept of a "battlesight zero".

I am not certain what a good size would be for a "hit/vital zone" for three gun matches. I have not shot enough of them to be able to get a good feel of the variety out there.

My goal is to try to think about this stuff now so I can simplify or do away with as much of the thought process as possible on a stage. I think not having to compensate for any targets out to about 330 yards is a good start. A 100 yard zero would only be out to around 230 yards, and a 200 yard zero would only bump that up to 265.

Anyone do or try this?

Thanks,

WG

[kurtm]

A 55 grainer at 3200 fps is going to be a 20" barreled rifle. I haven't seen those kinds of velocity out of shorter.......BUT since I run a load right at those velocities, out of a 20" barrel I'll play. I have always used a 300 yard zero....M-14, AR-15 w/ 20" barrel what ever. I can easily hit a 10" target out to 350 yds or so with no problem, and 400 is quite easy as well as you just aim a little over the top of the target. I have not only tried it, I have been doing it since 1977.....it works GREAT!

[larry weeks]

I've gone to a 300 yd zero, if I'd have known Kurt was doing so, I would have changed long ago. On targets from 100 to 200+, I just hold on the bottom of the target. Round is high and hits. Many of the targets used are only 10" and center hold could be chancy. I hold at the top of the target if it gets to 350-400.

[CJW]

I certainly have not been doing this since 1977. My own preference is with a 50/200 yard zero (pretty much the same thing through every rifle of mine I have zeroed). I like the fact that I am never more than about 2" over Point-of-Aim and do not have to worry about hold-unders.

[Tom Freeman]

I learned how to shoot a rifle from Kurt and Eddie Rhodes. They told me to use a 300 yard zero. Been doing it since I started shooting 3-Gun in the 90s.

No reason to change.

[Wild Gene]

If you backed it down from 300 to a 275 yard zero, you could hold dead center on 8" targets out to 320 yards without any compensation. This would include not having to hold low for targets in the 175 yard range. (assuming approximate ballistics used)

Kurtm, you really need faster bullets... haha

Edited September 30, 2014 by Wild Gene

[DocMedic]

It would depend on what you use sight wise, true irons or a 1x scope, and even then it depends on what scope. on my Vortex the center dot is a 3MOA. With my loads that gives me a 70/210 yard zero. What that does for me is the top half of the dot 1.5 is 100 yard zero, and the bottom part of the dot is 300yard zero. When the dot is on top of the target assuming its 4moa target I have a 400 yard zero. I learn this trick from Cassonova.

[openclassterror]

You are assuming with your MPBR that your rifle shoots 0" groups. If you are for instance 6" low at 350 yards (just to pick a number, I don't know your ballistics), but your rifle is a 2MOA rifle in the hands of a huffin' and puffin' competitor by the end of the stage, your dispersion will be 7" at that distance. Which means your AVERAGE shot will fall 6" low, but any particular shot will be from 2-1/2 to 9-1/2 inches low. If you are using a center hold on a 12" plate at 350 (because your MPBR zero says you can), a LOT of your shots are going to be off the bottom of the plate. Or at least low enough on the circle that your available target is much narrower than up at the middle where it is 12" wide. Which make windage errors more costly. My opinion is that it is better to know your trajectory and use a reticle that allows you to make rapid, accurate adjustments for distance (messing with turrets during a match is WAY too slow).

"AIM SMALL, MISS SMALL". I use a Vortex Razor with the Bullet drop Stadia lines, and a 200 yd zero. I have to make a MINOR adjustment at the furthest distances (500 yd line is SLIGHTLY high for the load that I use) but using the lines at 300 and 400 ( and holding between them for 350 and 450) has proven VERY accurate.

[Wild Gene]

So you add some "wiggle factor" into your MPBR. Personally, if I had a 2MOA rifle, I'd sell it, BUT the "huffin and puffin" part, that I got!

If you are shooting a 12" circle, for instance, you use an 8" MPBR sight in at 275 yards (4" above or below line of sight Max) and be able to hold dead on to 320 yard, and still have 2" up or down to spare. Wouldn't that be a better option than having to count Mil. Dots on a scope while you beating cheeks from one target to the next? Just asking. Ya don't know unless you ask sometimes.

Thank you!

WG

[co-exprs]

I hard zero at 300yds on paper with everything but BDC scopes. I don't change my zero for different matches any more either. I just go shoot it the way it is. Hold 6 o'clock on every thing between 50 and 250yds. Hold center from 250 to 350. Hold slightly above the plate at 400yds. At 500yds we usually get a full sized USPSA metric target, so hold a little above the head at 500 and the full height of the target at 600. As long as I do my job the bullet does it's job.

[HRider]

I run iron sights and a 300yd zero on my rifles, when I do my part, it works, just like Kurt says.

Hurley

[kurtm]

Wild Gene.....if I backed down my zero to 275 yards it wouldn't be a 300 yard zero now would it.

[MarkCO]

Just so you know, most of the responses are from guys running Irons and that has been the go to for a long time for the Irons and 1X guys. However, they are not advocating the OPs MPBR concept, which is very different. The reason why MPBR zeros are not the best for 3Gun was explained in post #8 very well.

You have to know your holds, there is no shortcut until we get a Laserbeam division.

[Wild Gene]

Marco, Absolutely! That's the great thing about this forum. It saves a ton of time that I could devote to time on the range not dicking around trying things that others have tried and found to be less than worthwhile! That is why I ask the questions. I lack the match experience to know, and am not too proud to ask.

An Ag professor from college (WSU, Go Cougs!!) once told the class "you're going to figure out your dad isn't as dumb as you think he is". That has been a life lesson for me. I figured it out less than two years after I graduated and dad passed, in 1987.

As far as irons go, I'm having more fun with my M1A than any rifle I've ever had, and that rifle has made me 10 times better with my AR. The other day I went to a public sight in day with my M1 and was having a blast knowing the guys with the scoped magnum hunting rifles were watching me get good hits on steel out to the 600 yard targets with an iron sighted rifle. Regardless, that is what got me to thinking about the 100 yard zero I was using on my AR, and how it was probably less than optimum for any match that had targets out past 200 yards.

I appreciate each and every reply on this thread.

Kurtm, no, no it would not... Haha, have a good one

wg

[JohnLTD]

I have been using a 300yd zero, with a fast 55gr bullet, and a scope with 2 moa subtensions for three years now with really great results. It keeps the thought to a minimum since most targets are within 300 yards (even at my favorite match RM3G). Less holds to memorize means less time on the stage.

[freakshow10mm]

I use MPBR for hunting rifles, but not for competition rifles.

[Alaskapopo]

Does anyone Zero their rifle to Maximum Point Blank Range?

By MPBR, I mean you take the size of the vital area you want to hit, say 12". You sight in you rifle so that the bullet trajectory is no more than 6" above or below the line of sight. This way, you can hold dead center any 12" target out to a given range and hit the target.

For example:

Your load is (using the federal ballistic calculator) .223, 55 grain with a bc of .255 traveling at 3,200 fps. You would be able to sight your rifle in at 325 yards and hold dead center on a 12" target out to around 380 yards.

If you had an 8" target, you would sight in at 275 yards and be able to hold dead on for targets our to 320 yards (never more than 4"above or below the line of sight). Conversely, on a rifle with the scope mounted 2.5" above the line of sight, this would put you only around 1" low on a target at 25 yards (unexpected benefit).

I believe this would be similar to the concept of a "battlesight zero".

I am not certain what a good size would be for a "hit/vital zone" for three gun matches. I have not shot enough of them to be able to get a good feel of the variety out there.

My goal is to try to think about this stuff now so I can simplify or do away with as much of the thought process as possible on a stage. I think not having to compensate for any targets out to about 330 yards is a good start. A 100 yard zero would only be out to around 230 yards, and a 200 yard zero would only bump that up to 265.

Anyone do or try this?

Thanks,

WG

No and I think its a bad idea. Some matches like ours up here run small MGM auto poppers at 100 to 200 yards. You will be using a lot of Kentucky elevation with your point blank zero.

Pat

[TonytheTiger]

The only people I've seen use the MPBR method are the hardcore mil/tactical guys, you know, the big guys who wear camo pajamas with mag pouches, eat nothing but MRE's and know everything there is to know about guns cause uncle Sam taught them. Guess which guys regularly show up to matches and hose an entire mag at a 4" plate at 60yds with every round going over the target? No disrespect meant to our men and women in uniform, there's know it all morons and great people in any line of work.

Edited October 2, 2014 by TonytheTiger

[billdozer]

I use a 40 yard zero with my 75gr Hornady's going 2650 fps. I can aim center dot to 225, then my dots and hashes line up almost perfectly out to 600.

[Wild Gene]

Thinking the real key, no matter what you do, is to know where your bullet is going from the muzzle to sight in distance and Beyond.

[38superfan]

I believe in doing that. That's about how we did it in the army. Sight in at 25, good for center mass to 300. We had a2s then....

[TonytheTiger]

That's fine and dandy for torso sized targets, all my buddies that are in the military found out it takes a lot more thinking then that when they shoot my 6-10" plates out to 300yds.

[pjb45]

Carpola, You turds got me thinking that my 100 zero is truly not the way to go. I guess that means spending time at the range having to shoot my JP. Another crummy day in Paradise.

[Sterling White]

If I shot 3GN matches I would zero at 60 yards but since I don't I run a 300. And yes, that is out of short JP's - 556 and 762.

[Stlhead]

I have tried 300, 200, and 100. I think each has an advantage at different times. I have taken the lazy man route and just use 200 for all my limited rifles, Iron and 1x.