fwrun Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I can see people's preference for 15 rounds If this idea gains some traction, which it seems to be doing, I would prefer to not use a number but instead say load to magazine capacity. My M&P 40 can load 15 but my M&P 9 can load 17. I don't want to give up those two rounds just because everyone says load 15 in the magazine. This is actually a much better idea than a 15 round "limit". The "limit" should be whatever the normal mag cap is... I had mentioned this before on the area 6 FB page as an idea, but honestly, I don't really see the need for it. It basically becomes limited minor at that point given all the mods that can be made to production guns already. If I had a vote, I'd just keep it the way it is. I'm a new guy to this sport, shot my first match a month and a half ago. But I'm having a lot of fun with the current rules, and see a lot of people around me at matches that accept/enjoy the rules as they are. I like the stage-planning aspect of production, and I feel if the mag capacity was lifted, it would radically alter the production game to simply mirror limited division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cautery Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 (edited) I can see people's preference for 15 rounds If this idea gains some traction, which it seems to be doing, I would prefer to not use a number but instead say load to magazine capacity. My M&P 40 can load 15 but my M&P 9 can load 17. I don't want to give up those two rounds just because everyone says load 15 in the magazine. This is actually a much better idea than a 15 round "limit". The "limit" should be whatever the normal mag cap is... so it will turn into an equipment race and make some nice guns (like production .40 guns, for example) obsolete overnight? I guess that makes sense (not really). We have a division where you can load to mag capacity already, 2 of them, in fact. Can you explain to me what your specific objection is? How does allowing someone to load their stock M&P 40 mags to 15 (as designed), an equipment race? In limited, I have a +5 base pad on the stock mag... for 20. In open, I'd have the option to use a 170mm mag. Not the same thing... Right now, Production Class Rules artificially REDUCE the magazine capacity of the vast majority of Production guns as sold... Arbitrarily reducing mag acpacity is for totalitarian governments, not USPSA... Actually, we don't have a "Production" class... we have Production-10 Class. Edited August 17, 2014 by cautery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee G Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 (edited) so it will turn into an equipment race and make some nice guns (like production .40 guns, for example) obsolete overnight? I guess that makes sense (not really). We have a division where you can load to mag capacity already, 2 of them, in fact. Can you explain to me what your specific objection is? How does allowing someone to load their stock M&P 40 mags to 15 (as designed), an equipment race? In limited, I have a +5 base pad on the stock mag... for 20. In open, I'd have the option to use a 170mm mag. Not the same thing... Right now, Production Class Rules artificially REDUCE the magazine capacity of the vast majority of Production guns as sold... Arbitrarily reducing mag acpacity is for totalitarian governments, not USPSA... Actually, we don't have a "Production" class... we have Production-10 Class. Actually we don't have either. It's Production Division. It will become an expensive equipment race because those stock M&P's, Older XD9 and XD 40s and others will not be competitive with 12 to 15 rounds. When you have guns like CZ Shadows that can start with 19+1 in production I'd say that's a big advantage over other pistols. But what-evs. If production changes to these new rules I will not shoot it any more. It will no longer be production. That's including grip/frame modifications, external trigger mods, capacity increases etc. It's the fastest growing division so obviously we have to jack with the rules. It isn't broken, but it will be if the BOD doesn't stop jacking with the rules. All the proposed changes are going to accomplish is convincing me to go to limited or single stack. Edited August 17, 2014 by Lee G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I can see people's preference for 15 rounds If this idea gains some traction, which it seems to be doing, I would prefer to not use a number but instead say load to magazine capacity. My M&P 40 can load 15 but my M&P 9 can load 17. I don't want to give up those two rounds just because everyone says load 15 in the magazine. This is actually a much better idea than a 15 round "limit". The "limit" should be whatever the normal mag cap is... so it will turn into an equipment race and make some nice guns (like production .40 guns, for example) obsolete overnight? I guess that makes sense (not really). We have a division where you can load to mag capacity already, 2 of them, in fact. Thanks for making a cogent argument for keeping the capacity limit at ten rounds...... Most guns can play without capacity disadvantage -- even ones chambered in .40 and .45 10 rounders are legal to use in all 50 states -- and residents of those states don't run into any problems when they travel to larger matches out of state. (For those of you who suggest they stash mags with friends out of state -- please volunteer your names and addresses for that service. ) ROs are already keeping track of three different sets of capacity limits -- you really want to deal with the growing pains? For which purpose? And last but not least, IPSC even imposed a limit, because they realized the that production was turning into a one-trick pony division..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Out of Ammo Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I agree that the Production Division should be left as is. If I wanted to be in Limited or Open I would have bought the gun and equipment to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewbeck Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 * asterisk for PO let people decide how they compare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I can see people's preference for 15 rounds If this idea gains some traction, which it seems to be doing, I would prefer to not use a number but instead say load to magazine capacity. My M&P 40 can load 15 but my M&P 9 can load 17. I don't want to give up those two rounds just because everyone says load 15 in the magazine. This is actually a much better idea than a 15 round "limit". The "limit" should be whatever the normal mag cap is... so it will turn into an equipment race and make some nice guns (like production .40 guns, for example) obsolete overnight? I guess that makes sense (not really). We have a division where you can load to mag capacity already, 2 of them, in fact. Can you explain to me what your specific objection is? How does allowing someone to load their stock M&P 40 mags to 15 (as designed), an equipment race? In limited, I have a +5 base pad on the stock mag... for 20. In open, I'd have the option to use a 170mm mag. Not the same thing... Right now, Production Class Rules artificially REDUCE the magazine capacity of the vast majority of Production guns as sold... Arbitrarily reducing mag acpacity is for totalitarian governments, not USPSA... Actually, we don't have a "Production" class... we have Production-10 Class. IPSC discovered already that production became a "3 guns only are competitive" and they all hold ~ 19 rounds" division when there were no capacity limits. My post above lays out some of the historical and current considerations for the ten round limit. Tell me -- what exactly do you hope to gain by increasing the limit -- other than it will cater to your idea of what the division should be? My list above is based on a decade's experience running matches and competing in the division..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 It's the fastest growing division so obviously we have to jack with the rules. It isn't broken, but it will be if the BOD doesn't stop jacking with the rules. All the proposed changes are going to accomplish is convincing me to go to limited or single stack. That's one of my concerns. Production has gotten to be very popular -- does anyone have numbers suggesting it would undergo another growth spurt if we make any of these changes? (Note: Growth spurt -- we wind up with more net participation after the change. If the new participants simply replace old ones -- that's not a growth spurt.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewbeck Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Letting mags being loaded to capacity starts an equipment race. it's a part of production that makes production what it is. Mag round count levels production from a time perspective, if you go to 15 you are "limited kind of" and in no mans land. Everyone deals with the same round count and reload issues. The bigger question is, if you want the mag change and flexibility on the outer appearance of parts, why don't you just shoot limited? a magwell is about the only different once you make all the changes. I think production optics should be an option but should not be a part of the "competitive" group or make it a competition race. I say if someone new to the game wants to shoot production optics, go for it! If you want to win nationals with optics.... you are an open shooter gaming production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cautery Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 so it will turn into an equipment race and make some nice guns (like production .40 guns, for example) obsolete overnight? I guess that makes sense (not really). We have a division where you can load to mag capacity already, 2 of them, in fact. Can you explain to me what your specific objection is? How does allowing someone to load their stock M&P 40 mags to 15 (as designed), an equipment race? In limited, I have a +5 base pad on the stock mag... for 20. In open, I'd have the option to use a 170mm mag. Not the same thing... Right now, Production Class Rules artificially REDUCE the magazine capacity of the vast majority of Production guns as sold... Arbitrarily reducing mag acpacity is for totalitarian governments, not USPSA... Actually, we don't have a "Production" class... we have Production-10 Class. Actually we don't have either. It's Production Division. It will become an expensive equipment race because those stock M&P's, Older XD9 and XD 40s and others will not be competitive with 12 to 15 rounds. When you have guns like CZ Shadows that can start with 19+1 in production I'd say that's a big advantage over other pistols. But what-evs. If production changes to these new rules I will not shoot it any more. It will no longer be production. That's including grip/frame modifications, external trigger mods, capacity increases etc. It's the fastest growing division so obviously we have to jack with the rules. It isn't broken, but it will be if the BOD doesn't stop jacking with the rules. All the proposed changes are going to accomplish is convincing me to go to limited or single stack. Excuse me... I was thinking division, wrote class. Fair enough... I was just currious as to what your reasoning is for you opposition to a capacity bump.... which is the ONLY change I support at the moment. Definitely don't support a whole new DIVISION. I don't shoot Production... I went straight to Limited, and frankly like it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Something to keep in mind is that increasing the round limit is NOT on any published agenda so let's not get too worked up over it. After reading the latest posts I can see where increasing the round limit would not be a good change, in my opinion. Keeping it set at 10 does level the playing field somewhat. If I could add something to the agenda I would like to see the area where you can apply grip tape or do stippling expanded to include the entire frame. Back when I shot limited and gas pedals hadn't come along having some grip tape on the side of the frame was a nice enhancement. I'd love to be able to do that with my M&P's. By permitting stippling on the entire frame that's one less thing for RO's worry about when performing equipment checks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cautery Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) IPSC discovered already that production became a "3 guns only are competitive" and they all hold ~ 19 rounds" division when there were no capacity limits. My post above lays out some of the historical and current considerations for the ten round limit. Tell me -- what exactly do you hope to gain by increasing the limit -- other than it will cater to your idea of what the division should be? My list above is based on a decade's experience running matches and competing in the division..... I gain Nothing... You (and others) have some valid points. And since Production really isn't my thing, I'm just gonna back out of this discussion re: Production capacity limits. Hard NOT to notice however that Appendices D1-D3 are all a single page long, but Appendix D4 - Production Division is now 7 pages long.... AND add to this the "Approved Handguns List" which is another 4 full pages. I agree with you that I would prefer NOT to increase the RO work load any more than absolutely necessary... The equipment restriction babysitting requirements are already quite extensive and have grown noticeably since I first became an RO. PS - You don't have to provide me your resume... a logical argument is all that is required. Edited August 18, 2014 by cautery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Can you explain to me what your specific objection is? How does allowing someone to load their stock M&P 40 mags to 15 (as designed), an equipment race? In limited, I have a +5 base pad on the stock mag... for 20. In open, I'd have the option to use a 170mm mag. Not the same thing... Right now, Production Class Rules artificially REDUCE the magazine capacity of the vast majority of Production guns as sold... Arbitrarily reducing mag acpacity is for totalitarian governments, not USPSA... Actually, we don't have a "Production" class... we have Production-10 Class. It's pretty obvious to me. Right now a large variety of different guns are competitive in production, regardless of where their owners live. Folks from california or other places can travel to matches anywhere and compete on a level playing field. People can shoot their 40 even tho it has less capacity than a 9, or they can shoot a particular brand that may have less capacity, because capacity doesn't matter. Turning it into limited minor would make capacity matter. No one would be able to shoot a cz 40 (for example), and the disadvantage of shooting an M&p or glock 40 would be sufficient that no one would shoot those either. All the guns that people actually carry, or could actually carry, or are at least nearly identical to what they carry would disappear. There would end up being 1 or 2 purpose-built production race guns, and you would have to buy one of those if you didn't want to be at a huge disadvantage, kind of like limited is now. Right now production is VERY different from limited, and I think that is a good thing. I'm looking forward to shooting more limited this fall, but I don't want production to get any closer to limited than it is now (and specifically, I don't want to have to buy a new gun to compete in production when the one I have works fine, even tho I bought it before I knew anything about uspsa). Fortunately I'm not too worried about your suggestion gaining any traction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) I shot Production Saturday so I can now boldly say I don't care what is done with the rules. I will continue to shoot what I like. I shot Open Sunday so I can now boldly say that I am again amused at what a PITA any "sorta box stock" division is to regulate. Doesn't matter if it is guns, cars or bikes. I don't care what is done with them. I will continue to shoot what I like. Edited to add that on Sunday some sorta old, half blind robotic knees guy spanked everyone in all divisions like red headed stepchildren with an antiquated iron sighted pistol shooting in a 10 round restricted division. Just sayin'..... :-) Edited August 18, 2014 by Neomet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 We should just add a claimer rule to Production. You can shoot whatever you want off the list, but if you win a match, anyone at the match can buy your gun from you for MSRP. I wonder how many people would put a $200 trigger in a $600 gun with that rule... Is the Hi-Point C9 on the list??? No, but if google is right and the MSRP is $155, I say have at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I'm just glad PO is on the agenda. I say leave the current Production rules alone. With the addition of PO I love growing the sport and reaching out to shooters who have no place to run their carry guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 IPSC discovered already that production became a "3 guns only are competitive" and they all hold ~ 19 rounds" division when there were no capacity limits. My post above lays out some of the historical and current considerations for the ten round limit. Tell me -- what exactly do you hope to gain by increasing the limit -- other than it will cater to your idea of what the division should be? My list above is based on a decade's experience running matches and competing in the division..... I gain Nothing... You (and others) have some valid points. And since Production really isn't my thing, I'm just gonna back out of this discussion re: Production capacity limits. Hard NOT to notice however that Appendices D1-D3 are all a single page long, but Appendix D4 - Production Division is now 7 pages long.... AND add to this the "Approved Handguns List" which is another 4 full pages. I agree with you that I would prefer NOT to increase the RO work load any more than absolutely necessary... The equipment restriction babysitting requirements are already quite extensive and have grown noticeably since I first became an RO. PS - You don't have to provide me your resume... a logical argument is all that is required. Sorry if I came on a little strong, Clay....... As for the resume -- that was less for pumping my own ego, and more designed to let anyone reading now that my opinions weren't just formed by my experience as a shooter and my personal preferences. My ego's large enough, or so my beloved wife tells me frequently... They were formed to a large extent by having to find divisions for new competitors equipment to fit in most logically, an d by conversation with other production shooters over the years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I won't shoot a PO gun on Open. Will finish too far behind others I was soundly beating 3 months ago. Shooting won't be fun once that happens. Once the equipment becomes the difference, screw it. that's an interesting perspective, but one I don't share. I already know that if I'm *close* to a limited or open shooter, then I still get bragging rights cuz i'm shooting 10-rounds and minor. I don't really stress over finishing behind someone with faster equipment. I just try to narrow the gap by practicing. That's an interesting perspective, but one I don't share. If you're shooting a division and get beat by someone in the same division, you plain got beat. If you CHOOSE to shoot with less effective equipment, you chose to put yourself at a disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaylanGivens Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I shoot Production... Leave the Production division rules as they are... Create a PO division if you want... If the need for external trigger mods and grip reduction are needed/wanted... Add them to the new PO division... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 If the need for external trigger mods and grip reduction are needed/wanted... Add them to the new PO division... PO division should be the exact same rules as Production except for the 3 that need to be altered for PO to accommodate the sight. This is one of the benefits of PO, it uses a successful ruleset. I don't want Prod rules to change either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaster113 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I think Production should be left exactly the way it is. I also feel there should be a minimum trigger pull weight, but that got shot down. If one wants to tweak his gun beyond the scope of Production mods then have at it; go into Limited or L10. As for Production Optics, we already have a division called Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaylanGivens Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Would the new PO class require race gun holsters to fit the sight? What kind of sights would be allowed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Would the new PO class require race gun holsters to fit the sight? What kind of sights would be allowed? I'll give you the Production Optics Cliff Notes Allowed 1) slide mounted optic 2) laser Must 1) fit in current production legal holsters 2) fit in PO box with barrel parallel to longest side of box, optic/sighting device can protrude through the gap in the top of box. This box was designed and posted in the Production Optics thread. Good luck finding it. BritinUSA did the design, PM him if you would like to see it. 3) follow all current Production rules No mods will be allowed beyond the above Ps, forgive me if I've forgotten anything, it's middle of the night here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Lasers should be prohibited in PO just to save novice shooters from themselves. It's just a dumb idea and would be a step backwards in competitiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Lasers should be prohibited in PO just to save novice shooters from themselves. It's just a dumb idea and would be a step backwards in competitiveness. I agree, but when we, as in several of us, were discussing optics we kept getting the laser discussion coming from several fronts. Mostly from people opposed to the whole idea, essentially they were just making dumb arguments to derail the mission. I think the must fit in current holster eliminates most of them. One can only hope. But I'm willing to compromise to get it through if we must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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