Proposed USPSA Production Division Changes

[ZackJones]

We (area 6 and 1) should have interim AD's appointed today. I would like to see trigger change get passed. I am not to sure what the grip reduction is all about though.

[alma]

Trigger modification might make sense seeing as most of the current "Production legal" Glock triggers should not be legal given the modifications to the trigger safety engagement.

[BritinUSA]

I was wondering if the grip reduction relates to thinner grip panels on guns like the CZ & Tanfoglio.

[alma]

I was wondering that myself.

Essentially you can legally mod a CZ or Tanfoglio by changing the grip panels but there really isn't anything like that on most of the polymer guns save the ones with interchangeable back straps

[bthoefer]

I'm personally against both the grip reduction and trigger changes.

Grip reduction is a pretty extensive mod to the frame and how do you draw the line between that and undercutting the trigger guard or otherwise modding the frame ?

The forward set sear trigger from apex would become legal under the proposed rule change.

Both changes keep creaping production towards being just limited 10 minor.

Edited August 14, 2014 by bthoefer

[BritinUSA]

On a metal gun you can swap out the grip panels and on a polymer frame you have the interchangeable back-straps (some of them)... Seems a pretty even match to me so I'm not sure why there is a need to change that. I wish the agenda had a little more detail on what exactly the discussion is about. I think changes to divisions are open to review by the membership so hopefully we will get to provide some input to these discussions.

[euxx]

The good thing about Production is that it should not be hard to get normal capacity magazines when attending out of state matches. Store them with a friend who can bring them to the match for you...

It is harder than most would think. The vendors won't ship high capacity magazines to states with capacity limit and if you travel around the country you'll have to find a friend in every state and close enough to every match location you'll ever want to shoot... Not to mention using magazines you normally not using with your gun at big matches is not exactly a great idea.

With all that it is less troublesome to shoot Single Stack or even Revolver.

[motosapiens]

I'd rather allow 10 round single stacks in production minor. Single stack is almost as lonely a division as revolver at some major matches, and a 1911 has no real advantage over a cz, tanfo, or glock with a good trigger. SS already has a weight limit, dimension limits, external modification limits, etc, much like production.

not an unreasonable idea imho. Of course it would kill glocks in serious competition, but I see that as a good thing.

[StealthyBlagga]

I'd actually like to see harmonization with IPSC Production rules wherever possible. In this case, up the mag capacity to 15 rounds, and allow NO modifications to the trigger whatsoever. The "externally visible" criterion was always a cop out and the camels nose under the tent leading us inexorably to this proposed rule change. The further we take Production away from using stock guns straight out of the box, the more we validate all those whiners who claim you can't win USPSA without an expensive race gun... ultimately we will drive folks away from USPSA and into the arms of the IDPA.

[rack&roll]

On the USPSA web site the agenda for the upcoming in-person BOD meeting is posted. There's some interesting topics related to production division shooters:

- Review of New Division request: Production Optics

- Review of Division Change - Allow aftermarket triggers in Production beyond OEM exterior appearance

- Review of Division Change - Grip reduction in Production

Not really sure what the trigger one is about but if you want your opinion heard I'd encourage you to email your area director (areaX@uspsa.org) - replace X with area number and express your opinion.

Why is this question in this (S&W/M&P) forum?

[hops]

I can't tell if you are being serious or not.. On the off chance you are serious, if you think reloading is the most difficult aspect of the game you may want to reconsider how you play the game.

I like Production at 10 rounds. Doing reloads during a stage adds to the skill level. Where is the skill or challenge when you can shoot an entire stage with a single magazine?

I say make them all 10 rounders. Level the playing field a bit.

I am serious, but I never said "reloading is the most difficult aspect of the game" I said it adds to the skill level.

I like Production because it requires more skill and practice to be really good at. Can't run giant mags, so you have to practice reloads. Can't get by with sloppy shots like you can with major power factor so you have to be accurate. No giant magwells so reloads have to be exact. No red dots so you have to use the front sight. But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Lee G]

Production is fine the way it is. They need to leave it alone.

[ZackJones]

Why is this question in this (S&W/M&P) forum?

Because I posted it here . Actually I did so because the M&P is one of the few off the shelf production optic ready pistols so I thought I'd share the information with my fellow M&P shooters. I could have posted it elsewhere but I didn't really want to hear the opinion of people that shoot pistols other than M&P's.

[zhunter]

Why is this question in this (S&W/M&P) forum?

Because I posted it here . Actually I did so because the M&P is one of the few off the shelf production optic ready pistols so I thought I'd share the information with my fellow M&P shooters. I could have posted it elsewhere but I didn't really want to hear the opinion of people that shoot pistols other than M&P's.

I'm going to shoot it with a CZ SP-01 Shadow

[ZackJones]

I'm going to shoot it with a CZ SP-01 Shadow

That's only because you wussed out . Truth be told if I had the $$$ available I'd probably buy a CZ as well.

[Graham Smith]

Call me a Luddite if you will, but Production has already strayed so far from being true Production that it's fast approaching Limited 10 territory. If someone really wants modify their production gun that much, just shoot L10 minor. I've seen people do that with a 9mm and be competitive against people with a .40 major.

[Racinready300ex]

I can't tell if you are being serious or not.. On the off chance you are serious, if you think reloading is the most difficult aspect of the game you may want to reconsider how you play the game.

I like Production at 10 rounds. Doing reloads during a stage adds to the skill level. Where is the skill or challenge when you can shoot an entire stage with a single magazine?

I say make them all 10 rounders. Level the playing field a bit.

I am serious, but I never said "reloading is the most difficult aspect of the game" I said it adds to the skill level.

I like Production because it requires more skill and practice to be really good at. Can't run giant mags, so you have to practice reloads. Can't get by with sloppy shots like you can with major power factor so you have to be accurate. No giant magwells so reloads have to be exact. No red dots so you have to use the front sight. But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Then clearly in your eye's revolover shooters are the most skilled. We do the most reloads, and our reloads are much harder than yours. Magwell, what's that? And now we've all been forced into minor scoring. Only 8 shots, for 8 shot array's. Don't miss. Iron sights, and long heavy triggers. What could take more skill?

It's good to hear from a pistol shooter who thinks as highly of revolver shooters as you do. Thank you.

[hops]

I can't tell if you are being serious or not.. On the off chance you are serious, if you think reloading is the most difficult aspect of the game you may want to reconsider how you play the game.

I like Production at 10 rounds. Doing reloads during a stage adds to the skill level. Where is the skill or challenge when you can shoot an entire stage with a single magazine?I say make them all 10 rounders. Level the playing field a bit.

I am serious, but I never said "reloading is the most difficult aspect of the game" I said it adds to the skill level.I like Production because it requires more skill and practice to be really good at. Can't run giant mags, so you have to practice reloads. Can't get by with sloppy shots like you can with major power factor so you have to be accurate. No giant magwells so reloads have to be exact. No red dots so you have to use the front sight. But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Then clearly in your eye's revolover shooters are the most skilled. We do the most reloads, and our reloads are much harder than yours. Magwell, what's that? And now we've all been forced into minor scoring. Only 8 shots, for 8 shot array's. Don't miss. Iron sights, and long heavy triggers. What could take more skill?It's good to hear from a pistol shooter who thinks as highly of revolver shooters as you do. Thank you.

Haha. I try not to ever think about revolver shooters. They are like the squeege guys in NYC, I try not to make eye contact or they will come over.

But I must say, I have seen a few very impressive revolver shooters.

[motosapiens]

Then clearly in your eye's revolover shooters are the most skilled. We do the most reloads, and our reloads are much harder than yours. Magwell, what's that? And now we've all been forced into minor scoring. Only 8 shots, for 8 shot array's. Don't miss. Iron sights, and long heavy triggers. What could take more skill?

It's good to hear from a pistol shooter who thinks as highly of revolver shooters as you do. Thank you.

That's an unwarranted leap of logic imho. Following that trail, we must assume that the shooters who duct-tape a 2x4 and 2 cinder blocks to their azz are the most skilled because they make shooting much harder (but probably still more fun that waiting for the revolver guy to finish the COF).

[robot]

What's the point of production optics? Just shoot open.

[zhunter]

What's the point of production optics? Just shoot open.

Not wanting to spend $5000 on a gun that often doesn't work

Not wanting to use either a caliber that requires brass at 15-20 cents per piece

Not wanting to load major 9

Not wanting to require reloading as Open Division does now

Wanting to use production guns with a simple addition of a dot

Wanting to be able to buy cheap ammo on the way to a match

That's a few points, certainly not all of them.

What's your point of being against it?

[robot]

Looks like you have something against open:)

just shoot a production gun with factory ammo and a RMR in open minor. There's already a division for it why make another one? nobody asked you to spend 5k on a gun and gear.

[BeerBaron]

I like Production at 10 rounds. Doing reloads during a stage adds to the skill level. Where is the skill or challenge when you can shoot an entire stage with a single magazine?

I say make them all 10 rounders. Level the playing field a bit.

well states (and other countries) with mag limits have that already. you can shoot open wit 10 round mags. it does make you good at stage planning and makes reloads pretty important.

[trgt]

Call me a Luddite if you will, but Production has already strayed so far from being true Production that it's fast approaching Limited 10 territory. If someone really wants modify their production gun that much, just shoot L10 minor. I've seen people do that with a 9mm and be competitive against people with a .40 major.

Wonder if that is because its the only place level set for 9mm minor PF, as its own class - you are not taking 20% handicap on B/C/D scoring like you do in other divisions vs major PF?

[Racinready300ex]

Then clearly in your eye's revolover shooters are the most skilled. We do the most reloads, and our reloads are much harder than yours. Magwell, what's that? And now we've all been forced into minor scoring. Only 8 shots, for 8 shot array's. Don't miss. Iron sights, and long heavy triggers. What could take more skill?

It's good to hear from a pistol shooter who thinks as highly of revolver shooters as you do. Thank you.

That's an unwarranted leap of logic imho. Following that trail, we must assume that the shooters who duct-tape a 2x4 and 2 cinder blocks to their azz are the most skilled because they make shooting much harder (but probably still more fun that waiting for the revolver guy to finish the COF).

I was kidding a bit And when I shoot revo, production guys shouldn't worry about waiting for me. They should worry about losing to a wheel gun