Proposed USPSA Production Division Changes

[Magsz]

At this point, production is an absolute joke so why not in regard to trigger changes and grip modifications? I think it is an absolute travesty that you can do ANYTHING to a CZ or Tang that has removable grip panels but if you so much as think about wanting to make a Block, note i said Block, fit your hand you're likely to get castrated by the powers that be.

Ive also got to be honest here. Id LOVE to shoot limited but i dont want to reload .40 caliber. I also dont want to take the points hit from shooting limited minor so i simply dont. Even if im not competitive i dont want to FEEL like im not competitive because im taking a major loss for every C. Id like to see EXACTLY how much i suck on an even playing field. I own several guns that would fit great into a limited-production style category, ie grip reduced or stippled Glocks etc etc.

As far as production optics, again, why not? I think we have a lot of classes as is, some of them VERY lightly populated but i do know alot of guys that want to use red dots because of "work" or other ninja activities that would happily get into the gun games IF they could use their tier 1 blaster.

I think that opening up the divisions or loosening restrictions will get more people involved in the sport which is a good thing. The problem will be retention when they burn out from the gear race or get frustrated because its the same three jackholes shooting production optics EVERY month.

This is a debate that has no clear winner so it will be interesting to see where we end up.

[2MoreChains]

Just asking what people see as the unintended consequences of lifting the restriction on grip modifications and stippling.

Are we really going against the 'spirit' of Production if we allowed somebody to stipple the trigger guard, undercut the trigger a little, grind off finger grooves, or maybe add some stippling to the frame above the trigger?

I wouldn't mind undercutting the trigger guard on my G34 a little since the gap does not fit my middle finger very well, but currently that is verboten.

[BritinUSA]

The more modifications that are permitted, the the higher the perceived cost of this division will become. Potential new members will think that in order to be competitive they will need to spend more money on customization.

I think Production is popular because it is seen as a low cost division, you can win matches with a stock 'out of the box' gun. The current rules may seem a little obtuse to some but the division is growing rapidly with that rule-set.

[2MoreChains]

The more modifications that are permitted, the the higher the perceived cost of this division will become. Potential new members will think that in order to be competitive they will need to spend more money on customization.

I think Production is popular because it is seen as a low cost division, you can win matches with a stock 'out of the box' gun. The current rules may seem a little obtuse to some but the division is growing rapidly with that rule-set.

I hear you that it could potentially open a door that somebody can drive a truck thru, but stippling or undercutting a Glock is an expensive modification???? I suppose if you paid somebody to do it for you that would cost money, but for $9.99 you can buy a soldering iron and some sand paper and DIY. Hardly what I consider a big deal. Heck, Prod shooters probably do more customizing to get their holster and belt just right!

[atbarr]

So we're worried about some minor modifications on a $500.00 Glock, and that same Glock has to compete with a $1,500 or more CZ? Give me a break.

[Magsz]

Heh...

The funny thing is, the original Glock, out of the box was the design inspiration for Production. These days we have gun manufacturers specifically making pistols to fit into these categories and charging hand over fist for shitty service grade weapons because shmoes will pay for any perceived advantage.

IF production is going to become a gear race i guess we had better open up the flood gates...

[ZackJones]

Has there been a change to the agenda? I don't remember stippling being on the original one. I guess I should check the USPSA web site.

[Rolex]

So sorry, it's not the gun that makes the shooter, it's the shooter that makes the gun.

[Chuck TLE]

I suspect a number of OEMs are lobbying to have a Production optics division - it makes sense (emerging category of gun sales). There has been too much dominance of STI/SVI platforms (and hence little innovation) - it begs the question, "what's next" in the national emergence of Practical Shooting competition. And, how do we broaden the opportunity to bring in MORE members (paying dues members to USPSA).

[afletcher1965]

Total newbie here...don't have 1200 posts and haven't shot in a competition yet...so please be nice. As someone new getting into this I can see where jumping right into an Open Division match would be a little scary. Especially with some of the $3000-5000 guns I've seen.

Every other sport I've seen bases their divisions on skill level more than equipment. I used to play racquetball in tournaments and they had Novice, D, C, B, A and Open divisions. You could have the best equipment made but if you were new you probably weren't that skilled so it didn't make a difference. I had a friend on the US National Team that could beat me with a ping pong paddle. Some people would "sandbag" and play a lower level than they should be once they won a couple of tournaments they would be guilted into moving up.

I just bought an M&P Pro CORE 5" pistol and added the Trijicon RMR on it...mostly because I thought it was cool. I can see the point of Production is Production and in my mind if you're going to be calling it Production then really there shouldn't be any mods allowed. If you don't like the M&P trigger then buy another gun with a trigger you like, etc. By the same token I can't see the harm in allowing people to "tune" their guns with better parts like triggers, internals, barrels, etc. without going as far as porting barrels and slides, comps, mag wells, optics, etc. My personal suggestion would be to have something between "Novice" or "Production" and "Open" or "Do whatever the heck you want and can afford". So a "light modified/production optics" division would make sense.

To me the divisions need to be competitive but not to the point where someone can't see themselves competing to win. I'm not looking to be a Pro but wouldn't mind the idea of being able to win a match without dumping my entire 401k on equipment.

So, I'd be in favor of any changes (if necessary) to give the little guy a chance.

Edited September 19, 2014 by afletcher1965

[waktasz]

I promise you that practicing go a lot further for you than inventing a division for your gun to compete in.

[trgt]

...

I just bought an M&P Pro CORE 5" pistol and added the Trijicon RMR on it...mostly because I thought it was cool. I can see the point of Production is Production and in my mind if you're going to be calling it Production then really there shouldn't be any mods allowed. If you don't like the M&P trigger then buy another gun with a trigger you like, etc. By the same token I can't see the harm in allowing people to "tune" their guns with better parts like triggers, internals, barrels, etc. without going as far as porting barrels and slides, comps, mag wells, optics, etc. My personal suggestion would be to have something between "Novice" or "Production" and "Open" or "Do whatever the heck you want and can afford". So a "light modified/production optics" division would make sense.

To me the divisions need to be competitive but not to the point where someone can't see themselves competing to win. I'm not looking to be a Pro but wouldn't mind the idea of being able to win a match without dumping my entire 401k on equipment.

....

When you are starting out, just being safe and having fun is probably most important. You've got something cool you like play with, go ahead and start shooting it now in Open-Minor, don't wait for (PO) Production Optics one way or another. Once you start to figure things you, you'll probably be pleasantly surprised at how you do both overall and in the Open division -- there's a LOT to be said to have something reliable that you can get a lot of practice with, to Waktasz's point.

If/when it becomes a division, you'll just get the additional benefits of what a lot of folks are pushing for - being able to continue to climb the ranks running minor power factor ammo w/o scoring or equipment handicap against the major PF Race Guns. But that's something to worry about later, right now just top-off the biggest mags + extensions you can get (to 170mm), and go have some Open-Minor fun!

[afletcher1965]

Thanks taktasz and trgt. I agree. It's not about the equipment but having great equipment will at least help you make sure you know you are the one messing things up.

[jon49erfan]

As far as production optics, again, why not? I think we have a lot of classes as is, some of them VERY lightly populated but i do know alot of guys that want to use red dots because of "work" or other ninja activities that would happily get into the gun games IF they could use their tier 1 blaster.

I agree. If you dont want to shoot it, dont.

[Magsz]

Total newbie here...don't have 1200 posts and haven't shot in a competition yet...so please be nice. As someone new getting into this I can see where jumping right into an Open Division match would be a little scary. Especially with some of the $3000-5000 guns I've seen.

Every other sport I've seen bases their divisions on skill level more than equipment. I used to play racquetball in tournaments and they had Novice, D, C, B, A and Open divisions. You could have the best equipment made but if you were new you probably weren't that skilled so it didn't make a difference. I had a friend on the US National Team that could beat me with a ping pong paddle. Some people would "sandbag" and play a lower level than they should be once they won a couple of tournaments they would be guilted into moving up.

I just bought an M&P Pro CORE 5" pistol and added the Trijicon RMR on it...mostly because I thought it was cool. I can see the point of Production is Production and in my mind if you're going to be calling it Production then really there shouldn't be any mods allowed. If you don't like the M&P trigger then buy another gun with a trigger you like, etc. By the same token I can't see the harm in allowing people to "tune" their guns with better parts like triggers, internals, barrels, etc. without going as far as porting barrels and slides, comps, mag wells, optics, etc. My personal suggestion would be to have something between "Novice" or "Production" and "Open" or "Do whatever the heck you want and can afford". So a "light modified/production optics" division would make sense.

To me the divisions need to be competitive but not to the point where someone can't see themselves competing to win. I'm not looking to be a Pro but wouldn't mind the idea of being able to win a match without dumping my entire 401k on equipment.

So, I'd be in favor of any changes (if necessary) to give the little guy a chance.

This is a fantastic new post from someone whose opinion is NOT colored by veteran status.

Thank you for posting this.

[Jadeslade]

Ditto. M+P Core with RMR is awesome! Like he said just shoot Open Minor until PO!

[Gooldylocks]

...

Every other sport I've seen bases their divisions on skill level more than equipment. I used to play racquetball in tournaments and they had Novice, D, C, B, A and Open divisions. You could have the best equipment made but if you were new you probably weren't that skilled so it didn't make a difference. I had a friend on the US National Team that could beat me with a ping pong paddle. Some people would "sandbag" and play a lower level than they should be once they won a couple of tournaments they would be guilted into moving up.

......

So, I'd be in favor of any changes (if necessary) to give the little guy a chance.

Let me start with I agree. But there are also "classes" which is more what you are talking about with Novice, D,C, etc. The classification system goes from D, C, B, A, Master, Grand Master, in all six divisions. So I say jump in and shoot, and you will end up getting classed against people of a similar skill level in your division.

[afletcher1965]

You're welcome Magsz! Thanks for the clarification Gooldylocks.

[TriggerFreeze]

So does anyone know what was decided at the BOD meeting?

[ZackJones]

So does anyone know what was decided at the BOD meeting?

Not yet as no minutes have been posted.

[Sumtoc]

So does anyone know what was decided at the BOD meeting?

Not yet as no minutes have been posted.

20140914.pdf

[ZackJones]

So does anyone know what was decided at the BOD meeting?

Not yet as no minutes have been posted.

Saw them. Shot all proposed changes down

[Ray_Z]

The purpose of production division was to have a place to go where a shooter didn't have to put a wad of money into a gun to compete. We have picked up a lot of shooters since it's beginning. At our club I would say that production division has almost as many shooters in it as all the other divisions put together. My opinion,, it ain't broke, don't fix it.