the secret to recoil control?

[Wesquire]

I have also tested several shooters who have GM classifications in Limited division or other Iron sight divisions and all but one had at least 100lbs of grip strength while doing the "Shooting Type" of test. The Top Limited GM's that I tested all had at least 140+ lbs of grip strength.

did they get that strength through specific grip strength gadgets? or through daily dryfire? or through other ways?

I don't think you'd build much peak strength through dryfire.

[tha1000]

I can max out my cheap Camery grip dyno at more than 200lbs with both hands if I grip with all my fingers and use a normal "straight" wrist angle. Since I can max out my grip dyno with a "normal" grip using all fingers, I started to use it differently to replicate the conditions and angles of gripping a gun. For the strong hand I will grip it with only three fingers leaving my trigger finger off and point the gripper forward the same way as shooting strong hand only. Doing that I can produce 160lbs of grip force. For the weak hand I use all four fingers but I cant my wrist froward like I would using a normal thumbs forward grip on the gun and put my left arm out like I am building a "normal" two handed grip. The grip dyno is pointing down at roughly a 45 degree angle during this test and I can produce 150lbs of grip force. Testing my grip strength using the same finger count and wrist angles as shooting made more sense to me in quantifying how much grip force I am able to produce while shooting.

I have used my grip dyno and these "Shooting Type" of tests on many different shooters. From my grip dyno testing and observations while watching them shoot to see how well they can manage recoil, I have found that shooters with 100+ lbs of grip strength on each hand while replicating the "Shooting Type" of tests can usually manage the recoil of their pistols very well. Surprisingly there are not too many shooters I have tested that can produce 100+ lbs of grip force. The "Average" shooter seems to fall in the 70 - 80lbs of grip strength level and watching their guns flip around or shift around in their hands while shooting confirms that they are not gripping the gun hard enough due to simply being too weak.

I have also tested several shooters who have GM classifications in Limited division or other Iron sight divisions and all but one had at least 100lbs of grip strength while doing the "Shooting Type" of test. The Top Limited GM's that I tested all had at least 140+ lbs of grip strength.

This testing data confirms a solid link between gripping the gun HARD with a lot of pounds of grip force and being able to perform exceptionally well while shooting major PF non-compensated guns. I have said it before, but I will say it again. There is no getting around the fact that gripping the gun with a lot of pounds of grip force is better than using a weak grip and letting the gun flop around excessively.

perfect. thanks for the info.

[motosapiens]

I have also tested several shooters who have GM classifications in Limited division or other Iron sight divisions and all but one had at least 100lbs of grip strength while doing the "Shooting Type" of test. The Top Limited GM's that I tested all had at least 140+ lbs of grip strength.

did they get that strength through specific grip strength gadgets? or through daily dryfire? or through other ways?

I don't think you'd build much peak strength through dryfire.

why not? don't you grip the gun really really hard in dry fire? I sure as heck do. I haven't measured my grip strength, but I know for sure my ability to use it has increased significantly since i started shooting (and doing pt exercises for elbow tendons). But I had pretty reasonable grip muscles from years of racing dirtbikes in the desert, and from a regular free weight routine (and from carrying large hot kettles of homebrew back and forth between the kitchen and the garage).

Edited January 5, 2016 by motosapiens

[CHA-LEE]

I have also tested several shooters who have GM classifications in Limited division or other Iron sight divisions and all but one had at least 100lbs of grip strength while doing the "Shooting Type" of test. The Top Limited GM's that I tested all had at least 140+ lbs of grip strength.

did they get that strength through specific grip strength gadgets? or through daily dryfire? or through other ways?

I hate to say this, but does it really matter "How" they got their grip strength to that level? What matters is that their grip strength IS at that level. Everyone is different and comes from different backgrounds so what is "Needed" to improve grip strength for one person is going to be totally different than another person. For example, a car mechanic or farmer uses their hands all day long so they really don't have to do much to maintain or improve their grip strength. If you sit at a desk all day and type on a keyboard you are going to need a CRAP TON of focused effort to build and maintain the same grip strength level.

Could someone build and maintain proper grip strength by simply doing Dry Fire alone? Maybe, if they were gripping the crap out of their gun every time they handled it. But from what I have seen most shooters grip their guns WAY softer while doing dry fire than when they are actually shooting because they know its not going to go "BOOM" and there is no recoil to manage. NOT gripping the gun with the same pressure during dry fire is exactly why shooters can do crazy fast draws and reloads in dry fire but be way slower in live fire.

But look at it this way. When was the last time you dry fired and your hands and forearms were totally worn out and nuked the same way as if you did a dedicated gripper exercise? If that isn't happening then you are not getting the same level of griping exercise as a dedicated grip training program.

Edited January 5, 2016 by CHA-LEE

[motosapiens]

I hate to say this, but does it really matter "How" they got their grip strength to that level? What matters is that their grip strength IS at that level.

I think it matters. But I'm not offended if you don't. I just have scientific curiosity on many topics. I suppose I'll have to measure my grip strength some day.

[CHA-LEE]

The "How" only applies to what you specifically need, not what someone else needs. So figure out your specific "How" and get it done. I came up with my own grip strength training program that achieved my goals, fits my needs and does not create injury. My training program is exactly that, MINE. I didn't create it because Joe Blow did it. I built it up based on my needs and experience in seeing it work or not. There are endless threads on this forum and on the internet in general that define specific grip strength improvement training techniques or programs. Pick one and run with it, If it does not work, then pick another and run with it. Its not rocket science and there are no short cuts. It takes a lot of dedicated effort to improve grip strength without causing injury. The key is finding the proper training program that works for YOU.

[3djedi]

Cha-lee, would you mind posting your grip strength exercise routine. Or what it was before your injury. I am curious to see how others do this.

If you've already done this, I apologize. If that is the case could you tell me what page it's on.

Thanks!

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

[Wesquire]

I have also tested several shooters who have GM classifications in Limited division or other Iron sight divisions and all but one had at least 100lbs of grip strength while doing the "Shooting Type" of test. The Top Limited GM's that I tested all had at least 140+ lbs of grip strength.

did they get that strength through specific grip strength gadgets? or through daily dryfire? or through other ways?

I don't think you'd build much peak strength through dryfire.

why not? don't you grip the gun really really hard in dry fire? I sure as heck do. I haven't measured my grip strength, but I know for sure my ability to use it has increased significantly since i started shooting (and doing pt exercises for elbow tendons). But I had pretty reasonable grip muscles from years of racing dirtbikes in the desert, and from a regular free weight routine (and from carrying large hot kettles of homebrew back and forth between the kitchen and the garage).

It just isn't the kind of workout that builds much peak strength. Isometric exercises are just trash compared to dynamic exercises when it comes to building strength.

[motosapiens]

I have also tested several shooters who have GM classifications in Limited division or other Iron sight divisions and all but one had at least 100lbs of grip strength while doing the "Shooting Type" of test. The Top Limited GM's that I tested all had at least 140+ lbs of grip strength.

did they get that strength through specific grip strength gadgets? or through daily dryfire? or through other ways?

I don't think you'd build much peak strength through dryfire.

why not? don't you grip the gun really really hard in dry fire? I sure as heck do. I haven't measured my grip strength, but I know for sure my ability to use it has increased significantly since i started shooting (and doing pt exercises for elbow tendons). But I had pretty reasonable grip muscles from years of racing dirtbikes in the desert, and from a regular free weight routine (and from carrying large hot kettles of homebrew back and forth between the kitchen and the garage).

It just isn't the kind of workout that builds much peak strength. Isometric exercises are just trash compared to dynamic exercises when it comes to building strength.

well, alrighty then. You and cha-lee have been most helpful and educational, and I appreciate your input.

[CHA-LEE]

Alright, here is my grip exercise program. Use at your own risk. This works for ME so it may not be enough, too much, or cause you injury.

I use the Zenith version of the Captains of Crush grippers because the handles are smooth aluminum and they don't tear your hands up like the normal knurled ones. I use the "Trainer" and "#1" gripper weights for my grip workout. The heavier weight grippers can be used to measure your maximum grip strength, but I have found them to be pretty useless for regular workouts without damaging my hands. I have listed my gripper workout below and this helps me maintain my current grip strength. I can close the #2.5 COC gripper with my Right and and the #2 with my Left hand. My grip workout is basically geared towards maintaining my current grip strength level. I usually perform this 2 - 3 times a week. I use one gripper at a time and simply pass it between hands while going through the work out. I run this whole workout in one continuous event and by the time its done my forearms are pretty wasted but it does not cause me injury.

Trainer Gripper

(1) 50 reps on each hand in 2 sets

#1 Gripper

(2) 25 reps on each hand in 2 sets

(3) 30 second hold closed on each hand in 2 sets

No Gripper

(4) 50 reps of making a tight fist then full finger extension in 1 set

Edited January 5, 2016 by CHA-LEE

[3djedi]

Thanks!

In order to increase strength wouldn't you need to increase the number of reps or the amount of resistance each workout?

Just like you would for bench press, etc. Otherwise it seems like you would just maintain a level of strength. I know you mentioned you are maintaining in your post...

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[Wesquire]

I moved from a #1 to a #2.5 in about a year by doing the standard upper body 5X8-12 workout. Just move up in grippers as your strength increases.

[CHA-LEE]

Thanks!

In order to increase strength wouldn't you need to increase the number of reps or the amount of resistance each workout?

Just like you would for bench press, etc. Otherwise it seems like you would just maintain a level of strength. I know you mentioned you are maintaining in your post...

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

See, this is what I was trying to avoid. People see that I am using specific # grippers or work out program to maintain my grip strength and then they automatically think they need heavier ones or to change the program to increase their grip strength. You can't make a general assumption like that. If you don't currently have my level of grip strength how do you know that the weight of grippers I use to maintain my grip strength are not the same ones you need to build grip strength? Have you even taken the time to perform the grip exercise that I defined before making assumptions that you need to change it?

There is no getting around the requirement of figuring this stuff out all on your own. Stating this may make me sound like a prick, but the facts are the facts. You need to put in the effort to figure out what YOU need using trial and error. Not jump in head first based on assumptions.

Edited January 5, 2016 by CHA-LEE

[3djedi]

I use #1 @20 reps and then squeeze and hold for 20 seconds. But I try to increase to rep by 1 each session. When I get to 30 I will go to a #1.5 (or whatever the next is) and drop the reps back to 5 and build again.

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[grapemeister]

I don't have a job that requires any kind of grip strength so I use the trainer and #1 CoC grippers to build and maintain grip strength. How much I use them depends on how much I'm shooting live fire. When I have the time and money to shoot 4 or 5 times a week and about 700 or 800 rounds, then I pretty much stop using the grippers. For me, anyhow, that amount of shooting pretty much wares my arms out. But, I'm 49 now, and my stamina and rebound ability isn't what it use to be.

I also use some cheap light weight grippers I bought at Walmart for extended holds of about 30 seconds at a time. I hold my hand and arm out like I'm shooting and move my trigger finger back and forth like I'm pulling a trigger. I also use a short handled 5lb sledge hammer for various exercises.

There's no doubt I get a good workout and have obtained additional grip strength when dry firing and live firing but I've found that If I put to much in to it, especially when dry firing, it limits to a certain extant the amount of time I can dry fire. So, I grip hard when dry firing but not to the point where it cuts my dry fire time short because of exhaustion.

[motosapiens]

There's no doubt I get a good workout and have obtained additional grip strength when dry firing and live firing but I've found that If I put to much in to it, especially when dry firing, it limits to a certain extant the amount of time I can dry fire. So, I grip hard when dry firing but not to the point where it cuts my dry fire time short because of exhaustion.

I also find that it limits the amount of dryfiring I can do (when combined with weightliflting, running, hockey and stuff). Luckily, I'm only 54, so it takes 45-60 mins before I really get tired from dryfire. Starting last winter I really began to focus on making my grip as hard as I can really grip in dryfire, to make the drills more realistic, and to get more used to grip/relax/grip/relax cycle between positions, and sometimes even on wide transitions at a single position.

OTOH, I mostly shoot minor, so it probably doesn't even matter that much. Little girls in high heels can hold a 1911 flat shooting 9mm minor. lol. Still, lots of good info in this thread.

[Wesquire]

There's no doubt I get a good workout and have obtained additional grip strength when dry firing and live firing but I've found that If I put to much in to it, especially when dry firing, it limits to a certain extant the amount of time I can dry fire. So, I grip hard when dry firing but not to the point where it cuts my dry fire time short because of exhaustion.

I also find that it limits the amount of dryfiring I can do (when combined with weightliflting, running, hockey and stuff). Luckily, I'm only 54, so it takes 45-60 mins before I really get tired from dryfire. Starting last winter I really began to focus on making my grip as hard as I can really grip in dryfire, to make the drills more realistic, and to get more used to grip/relax/grip/relax cycle between positions, and sometimes even on wide transitions at a single position.

OTOH, I mostly shoot minor, so it probably doesn't even matter that much. Little girls in high heels can hold a 1911 flat shooting 9mm minor. lol. Still, lots of good info in this thread.

I think it matters even for minor. Think about how much better you would be if the gun didn't recoil at all. Any little bit closer to that helps.

[RaylanGivens]

I got the below grip dyno made by Camery. Its inexpensive and pretty accurate for how cheap it is. The only down fall is that it only goes to 200lbs so once you get mega grip strength you can max it out pretty easily.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAMRY-200-Lbs-Digital-Hand-Dynamometer-Grip-Strength-Training-Measurement-Meter-/221800765030?hash=item33a45b1666:g:C1cAAOSwLVZVuu0C

Thanks, CHA-LEE... I purchased one of the Camery grip dynos... I purchased mine from Amazon because I have Amazon Prime and it was a bit cheaper and came with qucker shipping...

I think it is very helpful to quantify grip strength... First time I have ever been able to do that...

I can max out my cheap Camery grip dyno at more than 200lbs with both hands if I grip with all my fingers and use a normal "straight" wrist angle. Since I can max out my grip dyno with a "normal" grip using all fingers, I started to use it differently to replicate the conditions and angles of gripping a gun. For the strong hand I will grip it with only three fingers leaving my trigger finger off and point the gripper forward the same way as shooting strong hand only. Doing that I can produce 160lbs of grip force. For the weak hand I use all four fingers but I cant my wrist froward like I would using a normal thumbs forward grip on the gun and put my left arm out like I am building a "normal" two handed grip. The grip dyno is pointing down at roughly a 45 degree angle during this test and I can produce 150lbs of grip force. Testing my grip strength using the same finger count and wrist angles as shooting made more sense to me in quantifying how much grip force I am able to produce while shooting.

I have used my grip dyno and these "Shooting Type" of tests on many different shooters. From my grip dyno testing and observations while watching them shoot to see how well they can manage recoil, I have found that shooters with 100+ lbs of grip strength on each hand while replicating the "Shooting Type" of tests can usually manage the recoil of their pistols very well. Surprisingly there are not too many shooters I have tested that can produce 100+ lbs of grip force. The "Average" shooter seems to fall in the 70 - 80lbs of grip strength level and watching their guns flip around or shift around in their hands while shooting confirms that they are not gripping the gun hard enough due to simply being too weak.

I have also tested several shooters who have GM classifications in Limited division or other Iron sight divisions and all but one had at least 100lbs of grip strength while doing the "Shooting Type" of test. The Top Limited GM's that I tested all had at least 140+ lbs of grip strength.

This testing data confirms a solid link between gripping the gun HARD with a lot of pounds of grip force and being able to perform exceptionally well while shooting major PF non-compensated guns. I have said it before, but I will say it again. There is no getting around the fact that gripping the gun with a lot of pounds of grip force is better than using a weak grip and letting the gun flop around excessively.

My grip strength measured 100.8 in my left (weak) hand and 111.4 in my right hand... That was using all four fingers in each hand and gripping as hard as I could. Although I seem to meet your 100+ classification, I know that I do not grip that hard during actual shooting... or dryfire.

I used to train with COC grippers and was too aggressive... I didn't do many repetitions, but I was always trying to squeeze the next hardest gripper... Needless to say, I got tendinitis in my left elbow... I used the Theraband Flexbar and IronMind's Expand-Your-Hands bands to help relieve the pain... The Expand-Your-Hands bands (large thick rubber bands) are very helpful... I continue to use them to this day... Every day...

Alright, here is my grip exercise program. Use at your own risk. This works for ME so it may not be enough, too much, or cause you injury.

I use the Zenith version of the Captains of Crush grippers because the handles are smooth aluminum and they don't tear your hands up like the normal knurled ones. I use the "Trainer" and "#1" gripper weights for my grip workout. The heavier weight grippers can be used to measure your maximum grip strength, but I have found them to be pretty useless for regular workouts without damaging my hands. I have listed my gripper workout below and this helps me maintain my current grip strength. I can close the #2.5 COC gripper with my Right and and the #2 with my Left hand. My grip workout is basically geared towards maintaining my current grip strength level. I usually perform this 2 - 3 times a week. I use one gripper at a time and simply pass it between hands while going through the work out. I run this whole workout in one continuous event and by the time its done my forearms are pretty wasted but it does not cause me injury.

Trainer Gripper

(1) 50 reps on each hand in 2 sets

#1 Gripper

(2) 25 reps on each hand in 2 sets

(3) 30 second hold closed on each hand in 2 sets

No Gripper

(4) 50 reps of making a tight fist then full finger extension in 1 set

Thanks for posting this CHA-LEE... It is interesting to see that you concentrate on repetitions and not maximum closure rates... although your maintenance stats are well above my abilities...

I appreciate your sharing this information here on the forums... It is an area that is not often discussed and will be very helpful now and in the future...

[CHA-LEE]

Test your grip strength again with the dyno using the "Shooting Type" of tests I described. On average you lose about 20% of your maximum all fingers grip when doing the "Shooting Type" tests. You will probably end up in the 80 - 90 lbs range when doing the "Shooting Type" tests.

Edited January 6, 2016 by CHA-LEE

[CHA-LEE]

One more tidbit to add.....

The majority of "average" shooters I have tested produce 70 - 80 lbs of grip force while performing the "Shooting Type" of test. This is also with them gripping has hard as they can, which they are not capable of continually gripping that hard while shooting and maintain viable trigger finger manipulation. I would venture to say that most shooters use about 75% of their maximum grip strength as their normal "Firm" grip pressure on the gun. If we use that percentage then the average shooters are only producing about 60lbs of grip force (per hand) on the gun while shooting.

At my grip strength level (150 - 160 lbs while doing the Shooting Type test) I am probably producing 120lbs of grip force when performing my normal "Firm" grip on the gun. Another way to look at it is that I am gripping the gun with twice as much poundage as an average shooter.

[Garmil]

Good info here. I bought that dyno to see where I'm at.

One question for you cha-lee

I have never uses captains of crush or anything similar but do work with my hands.

Do you think it could be beneficial to make a routine with the dyno exclusively? Like your example but hit x number of force on the dyno for a given amount of reps.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Garmil

[motosapiens]

I'm not cha-lee, nor do I play one on tv, but I think it would beneficial first to find out where you're at, and then make an assessment as to whether grip strength is holding you back right now or not. I'm a big fan of attacking low-hanging fruit with my training.

I don't feel like it's holding *me* back right now, and I can ill-afford to take time or effort away from other pursuits (like hockey, dryfire, and learning to call my shots better), but I still intend to find out what my current grip strength is, and make a plan for the future if necessary. If I want to be a GM someday, I'll probably eventually need to develop that part of my skillset to gm level too, and the data cha-lee posted will be very helpful in that endeavor.

[CHA-LEE]

Good info here. I bought that dyno to see where I'm at.

One question for you cha-lee

I have never uses captains of crush or anything similar but do work with my hands.

Do you think it could be beneficial to make a routine with the dyno exclusively? Like your example but hit x number of force on the dyno for a given amount of reps.

The Camery Grip Dyno wouldn't make a good exercise tool because it does not move very much when you grip it. You need range of motion to really work things out. I would compare gripping the dyno like squeezing a rock.

[Wesquire]

I would suggest just getting appropriately weighted captains of crush grippers. The dyno should only be added later for tracking purposes.

[Jake Di Vita]

I've posted this before (maybe even earlier in this thread now that I think about it). Rock climbing once or twice a week will strengthen your hands and fingers in ways you didn't know were possible.

I was closing the 2.5 CoC with both hands and my first time climbing left my hands and forearms trashed in a way I have never experienced otherwise. It also happens to be a hell of a lot of fun.