wtturn Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) You should not have to move any muscles, apply any pressure, or do any wrangling in order to get the sight back on target. Your grip should be a spring that allows the muzzle to lift slightly in recoil, but then returns the gun back to the exact same spot it came from before the shot.Recoil control is a constant, passive effort throughout the firing cycle. If any part of your body moves, strengthens or braces during the firing cycle, other than the movement of your finger on the trigger, your doing it wrong. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect Edited June 8, 2015 by wtturn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I want to control recoil better so I can miss faster. I am experimenting with the "ham-hand" approach. ( small attempt at humor ) Lately for me it's about smooth trigger press to maintain accuracy. I can't do this very fast, yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domino329 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Vogel's grip definitely works. Just follow his directions exactly. I practiced it during dry fire and several range sessions and I was amazed at the difference it made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewbeck Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 In classes with cha-lee and this question comes up, he'll "show" you proper weak hand grip by having you just be the trigger puller and he controls the gun with his weak hand grip. When he asks if the shooter is squeezing the gun hard to control it they say ya, then he clamps on to the strong hand and it's usually a "holy s$&@, I'm not even close to doing it that hard" One hand is your booger hook and bang maker, the other is your vise. If you try to shoot without squeezing with your trigger hand, it will quickly show you where and how hard you need to be squeezing with your week hand if you want to control it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Had an ah-ha moment a week or three back. A friend ran a video of me shooting and the video showed that my muzzle control was one heck of a lot better than I thought it was, not attempting to say that there is not room for improvement, but I was surprised and happy about what I saw. Better shooters can comment or correct, but my conclusion was that part of the opportunity is understanding what good muzzle control looks like rather than attempting to achieve zero motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmnielsen Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I got coached up on proper grip and it helped me a ton. I watched videos but I got the most out of actually having a person with me to coach me up while I was shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
himurax13 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) A good way to measure the effectiveness of your grip is to do a bill drill with 6 to 8 rounds from the holster and try to land everything onto an 8" paper plate at 7 to 10 yards as quickly/safely as you can. If you can do that, then doubletaps into an A zone should prove to be not that difficult. Edited June 15, 2015 by himurax13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshuberg Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) a Edited July 30, 2015 by Jshuberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Took a 1 on 1 class from a local Grand Master a couple weeks ago. He hits the gym on a regular basis, on one of the machines he is able to work the muscles on the weak hand wrist/arm the same way that a gun in recoil would. I assume he does the same for strong hand but we were talking about weak hand gun control and I didn't ask. Speaking for myself, I have been working on grip strength but doing nothing at all for recoil muscle wrist/arm strength, in retrospect this seems kind of dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixsomd Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 You need upper body strength as well as strong hands. I don't think you need upper body strength or strong hands to control a pistol. I think you just need to grip it right (hard, esp with the support hand) and at the right times. Anyone can do it, even 98 lb weaklings like me, so it's only self-limiting to make excuses. I'm 6-2, 168 lbs, 53 years old and do zero hand exercises and only enough presses and pullups so that my younger hotter wife isn't embarassed to appear with me in a swimsuit. If I grip the gun right, the sights don't even rise out of the a-zone at 7 yards. If I grip it crappy, they go all over. I find that bill drills and controlled pairs are helpful for me in confirming the things that are needed to grip right. I concur with the utility of the Bill Drill as a "test" and reinforcer of proper grip technique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I had a buddy video one of my stage runs this past weekend and he filmed it in slow motion by accident. This just so happened to provide a really good view and example of effective recoil management. I am shooting .40 major loads that average about 170PF. I uploaded two versions of the same video. The first one is in "Normal" speed, the second one is in "Slow Motion". Normal..... Slow Motion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gransport Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 CHA-LEE, thanks for posting those videos. They give me hope :-) I'm coming from a heavy Production gun (CZ) that I shoot flat as a pancake. Just picked up a CZ TS to try my hand in Limited. I've only had the chance to shoot it for the first time the other day, in a week night match. I had to use factory ammo as I'm still getting my press converted for 40. I was quite surprised at how much the sights jumped around. Hopefully I can get out tonight and just shoot some Bill Drills and some doubles as I try to hone in on my grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johniac7078 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 My 11 year old daughter shoots a G34 and 17 in IDPA using loads that make minor. Recoil is not an issue for her. It's is all technique. The key is to make sure the front sight goes up and down like a sewing machine. As soon as its on target, press the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 That vid is way impressive. Side note but it was also nice to see a good shooter allow the r.o. to be involved when it is time to make the range safe again. Am wondering if it is anywhere near as easy as it looks on the vid though, reason being is that I just do not see that level of control at matches. Obviously it can be done, and I am anxious to work on it, just seems like there has to be more to the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) That vid is way impressive. ........... Am wondering if it is anywhere near as easy as it looks on the vid though, ........ no it's not ....Good shooters make everything look easy .......... Edited October 23, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Nice Seeklander video!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 It's easier for some people than others, for various reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 It's easier for some people than others, for various reasons. I'm wondering how expectations should change relative to muscle mass. Have not seen a video of great recoil control that featured somebody of average or below average strength. It may be sort of like ripping phone books in half, proper technique will focus stress in a small area and facilitate tearing, all you need to add is great strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I don't buy the "you have to be a huge guy" to manage the recoil effectively. Look at Bob Vogel, he is an average size guy who can produce zero muzzle flip recoil management. You can make excuses as to why you can't do it or you can get to work and make it happen. YES you have to work at it like you mean it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gransport Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 .....so as I mentioned above, I just jumped into Limited Major with a CZ TS. First impressions were that the sights were jumping all over the place when firing in anger. That was last Mon. night. Yesterday, I did a 5 stage "monster" match....50 rounds per stage. I really focused on gripping the gun hard and kept that discipline throughout the entire match. Had my friends reminding me before every stage I work on a computer all day and have a weak, office boy grip. I am, however, 6'-4" 210 lbs. Got to say....it was a major improvement. Shot the gun pretty darn flat. Finished well and only had one penalty for the entire 250 rnd match. I'm a B in Production. Currently a C in limited, but that's because I got classified on a whim, a couple years ago. I should go up to B with a few classifiers. 6th/29 place in Limited, behind 3 M's and 12th/60 overall I'm loving major scoring so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I don't buy the "you have to be a huge guy" to manage the recoil effectively. Look at Bob Vogel, he is an average size guy who can produce zero muzzle flip recoil management. You can make excuses as to why you can't do it or you can get to work and make it happen. YES you have to work at it like you mean it. An average size guy with a really strong grip though, or so I have been told. A friend went to one of his classes last year and said that Vogel talked about the need for a lot of grip strength and offered anyone in the class $20 if they could fully compress the grip squeezer that he uses. The other thing that came to mind is that a revolver shooting buddy was talking to me about Miculek (sp?) and he pointed out that Jerry also has crazy strong grip strength. That said, I am not disputing you and would prefer it if you are correct. Just trying to figure things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 You are missing the point. Do you think that Jerry, Bob or any other shooter with exceptional grip strength were magically gifted with it? No. They all earned it with a crap ton of focused work to improve their grip strength. This is no different than any other physical sport. Do you think professional athletes excel at in their sports by NOT working out and maximizing the strength of key muscle groups? The fact of the matter is that most shooters don't want to put in the hard work and effort to improve their skills. Embracing the suck for months on end to improve is beyond the tolerance level of most recreational shooters. It far easier to avoid the hard work and instead search for an easy way out online, in books, or on videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Grip strength has the largest effect on recoil control if your grip technique is already good. People can dance around that fact all they want. It is simple physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 It's easier for some people than others, for various reasons. I'm wondering how expectations should change relative to muscle mass. Have not seen a video of great recoil control that featured somebody of average or below average strength. It may be sort of like ripping phone books in half, proper technique will focus stress in a small area and facilitate tearing, all you need to add is great strength. I was thinking of not only physical attributes, which can help, but also the ability to comprehend and consistently apply proper grip/hand angles and placement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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