How flat is flat?!?

[kneelingatlas]

Since joining the dark side I have had a lot of fun building my own guns on the platform I love CZs/Tanfoglios), but since I had never shot an Open gun until I built one, it seems I'm never quite satisfied with how flat it runs. The more guns I build and the more comps I try I'm beginning to think guy who claim their dot never leaves the glass are imagining things. I poked around for some videos today and say these two and thought, "my gun's flatter than that!"

Here are some videos of my shooting my gun (please disregard the shooting )

I've shot a few fancy 38 super 2011s with lots of barrel ports which surprised me with muzzle flip and started to realize a lot of Open shooters aren't very interested in making their guns shoot flatter

Does anyone have any footage of a really flat shooting Open gun?

[Sarge]

One thing to consider is that open guns are just like any other gun in that the shooters grip etc contribute a lot to perceived flatness. I have had people comment that my gun sure looks flat when I shoot it but I assure you the dot is moving plenty outside the glass.

Then there is the whole ego thing where a shooter will shoot your super flat gun and say ," it's not too bad", when he knows damn well he loved it compared to his. Most times from what I have seen guys just need to crank their loads up to smooth it out but seem reluctant to. I don't truly know where mine fits in but I have shot guns that were all over the place and I shot Ralph Lopez' imm open and it was like dry firing. I swear there was no perceived movement in the gun at all. Of course it weighed 10 pounds and was full of holes that just about blew my muffs off but it was indeed what I would call flat!

[Rick88]

I think a "adverage" flat shooting gun for uspsa shooting is faster, a super flat heavy gun slows me down and accuracy isnt as good. At least thats what the timer tells me, I also think the holygrail of the super flat gun is overrated for the type of shooting we do its a fine line between the positive and negative when other things related are considered. On a side note good shooting John, and sarge I agree with you on the grip that has a hell of a lot to do with it... :-)

[race1911]

...ever tried a necked down 40 to accommodate a 9mm bullet...called 9X40 (similar to Sig 357)............15.3 grains of H110 with a 124 grain 9mm bullet and it IS perfectly flat..no dot movement....as a matter of fact if you put more powder than that in you can have a gun that the dot dips when shooting.....neither situation is perfect though as you should have some dot movement so you can track your previous shot and next expected break of shot at center of target.....the beauty of a 40 case is the amount of powder it will accept and thus the quantity of gas it produces without coming anywhere near the pressure limit of the case (a fellow up here in Canada that used a 9X40 for several seasons once experimented with a little over 18 grains without rupturing the case), another advantage is that 40 cases are easy to acquire and cost efficient if you have to buy them

Edited May 2, 2014 by race1911

[kneelingatlas]

I've toyed with the idea of .357 SIG but every time I talk myself out of it because of the hassle/expense of loading it, if I want more case capacity 38SC is an easier step.

All in all I'm pretty happy with 9 Major, I think I just might like to try a shorter/lighter gun for a while (although my 52oz CZ is pretty smooth )

Edited May 2, 2014 by kneelingatlas

[eric nielsen]

I've shot 9x25 guns that were totally flat at the old power factor when we all loaded to 181. They had holes through the barrel & slide and were completely obnoxious, you had to low-crouch to RO one of those guys so your head stayed out of the shock waves.

Honestly the sweetest shooting Open gun I ever tried was a friend's 9x25 SV with plain steel 4-chamber cone comp on a skinny barrel, no porting, with then-new Signature series steel grip. Still very loud but the concussion was tolerable (for the shooter anyway) and the gun while having a little bit of flip, basically shot itself. No joke that thing was easier than Airsoft - all the recoil was in your mind, based on the noise.

Edited May 2, 2014 by eric nielsen

[fishhunter3]

I had a friend that shot a 357 sig open. at 210 PF it shot very flat but you had to be in the next county to not flinch when it went off.RO's use to duck and cover there heads.

[Sarge]

Yeah the 9x25 is a beast. A necked down 10mm makes the .357 seem pretty small. Then there is the whole mag capacity thing compared to the 9's and 38's

Edited May 2, 2014 by Sarge

[Desmo412]

As long as the dot tracks predictably and returns to the center of the glass, you are good to go. I went from 124s to 115s and added 2 popple holes because it made the dot rise and fall much quicker. After that, I went from a 10lb recoil spring to an 8lb to stop the dot from dipping below center when the slide closed. Add in 9.3gr of HS6 or 10.5gr of AA#7 in a 9x19 case and you have a gun that reacts much quicker than I can. The only thing holding me back from GM is me

[kneelingatlas]

I'll agree with that Desmo, I some spring tuning left to do, but I'm pretty happy with my load: 115gr at ~175pf

I have a few compact slides I want to experiment with, as well as some slide lightening.

[38supPat]

The question is how flat does it need to be? I believe it was TGO that found the 9x25 was too obnoxious and ended up with a load that duplicated the .38 super load before he was happy with it. The 9x25 died because the price you paid for a flat gun wasn't buying any better scores.

And fwiw watch this video of Max and see how much the gun moves, yet its an awesome performance

[MikeRush]

How about negative rise? Power pistol and a 38 super 2011 with lots of barrel ports FTW! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdQqGq5i5-Y

I think you may be applying more grip pressure than most, augmenting the perceived "flatness".

Our gracious host talks about a neutral grip and (butchered/paraphrased) how it doesn't matter how high it lifts as long as it comes back to the same spot. YMMV. I think a neutral, balanced grip that lets the gun do the work but tracks back on to target is plenty fast whether or not that is "flat".

[kneelingatlas]

My quest for flatness isn't even really motivated by faster splits or better scores, it's more about a personal challenge and advancing my favorite platform. I've said many times USPSA is four hobbies wrapped up in one: shooting, gunsmithing, reloading and gear collecting; i really geek out on the gunsmithing part most of all

[captain037]

That's deep ka but you are right. The gun smithing drives me crazy tho.

[captain037]

By the way, I know you are shooting 115's but what load have you found that is flattest?

[klee]

I went from a shorty 9 major to a trubor 38 super. I seem to feel the super is a bit flatter than my 9. The trubor doesn't have any holes but seems to really flatten out and move the least at around 175-178 pf. I heard from a friend who shot one of akai's stroked 9 and said it's the softest and flattest gun he have ever shot. I cant wait to try it.

[kneelingatlas]

I would blame the shorty part more than the 9Major part, short Major guns are a ride regardless of caliber.

[kneelingatlas]

By the way, I know you are shooting 115's but what load have you found that is flattest?

In my CZ Open gun it doesn't seem to get any flatter as you go over 170pf (that's all the gas my three port comp can use), I've been all the way to 181pf and it just gets harder in the hand.

I've tried three powders:

SP2

HS6

Long shot

in that order of preference. SP2 obviously is the holy grail of Open powders, HS6 is close but a little harsher, a little dirtier and Long shot is just absurd! 8.4gr barely makes 165pf and it throws a huge fireball with a concussion big enough to knock over a small child! I plan to use the rest of the pound I have on steel loads and .40 Major with heavy bullets.

[L9X25]

Let me briefly explain the problem with a totally flat gun.

First of all, look at the targets we shoot and the shape of the A zones. The A zone is tall and thin, and tolerates some vertical error, but does not tolerate much lateral error. When you remove the vertical movement from the gun, the gun basically oscillates in a random (unpredictable) circular pattern after it fires. An un-aimed second shot can get you a C or D that is vertically in the middle of the target. If the same error had been vertical, both hits would have easily been A's. Introducing some vertical movement makes the gun's movement predictable laterally and eliminates the randomness of the movement. The inconsistency is not cause by the gun, rather by the grip and arms that are holding the gun.

Then there is the part where the gun helps move itself to the next target. If the gun has no vertical movement, the shooter has to exert all the effort to move it to the next target. With vertical movement, the recoil is helping to move the gun (with your guidance) to the next target.

I spent years chasing the "holy grail" of flat guns, only to reintroduce some vertical movement once I figured out that predictable movement beats random movement every time.

Finally, the rumors of the 9x25's demise have been greatly exaggerated. There are a few that are alive and well, living in central Florida. On a quiet Sunday morning, nearly anywhere in Florida, you can face towards the Tampa Bay area and listen ... those noises that you assumed were distant thunder are actually the battle cry of one of the last remaining 9x25s. If you don't believe me, ask any of the local RO's ... you may have to speak loudly, as they all suffer from profound hearing loss.

[sauza45]

Let me briefly explain the problem with a totally flat gun.

First of all, look at the targets we shoot and the shape of the A zones. The A zone is tall and thin, and tolerates some vertical error, but does not tolerate much lateral error. When you remove the vertical movement from the gun, the gun basically oscillates in a random (unpredictable) circular pattern after it fires. An un-aimed second shot can get you a C or D that is vertically in the middle of the target. If the same error had been vertical, both hits would have easily been A's. Introducing some vertical movement makes the gun's movement predictable laterally and eliminates the randomness of the movement. The inconsistency is not cause by the gun, rather by the grip and arms that are holding the gun.

Then there is the part where the gun helps move itself to the next target. If the gun has no vertical movement, the shooter has to exert all the effort to move it to the next target. With vertical movement, the recoil is helping to move the gun (with your guidance) to the next target.

I spent years chasing the "holy grail" of flat guns, only to reintroduce some vertical movement once I figured out that predictable movement beats random movement every time.

Finally, the rumors of the 9x25's demise have been greatly exaggerated. There are a few that are alive and well, living in central Florida. On a quiet Sunday morning, nearly anywhere in Florida, you can face towards the Tampa Bay area and listen ... those noises that you assumed were distant thunder are actually the battle cry of one of the last remaining 9x25s. If you don't believe me, ask any of the local RO's ... you may have to speak loudly, as they all suffer from profound hearing loss.

What did you say I cant here you. Yes you are right the 9x25 you shoot is loud.

[joedirt]

My quest for flatness isn't even really motivated by faster splits or better scores, it's more about a personal challenge and advancing my favorite platform. I've said many times USPSA is four hobbies wrapped up in one: shooting, gunsmithing, reloading and gear collecting; i really geek out on the gunsmithing part most of all

I agree.. I can't decide on a new gun a cnc mill

[StraightUp_OG]

CNC without question.

[ctay]

I never really thought about the vertical movement helping get the gun moving to the next target but it makes sense. Even if the next target isn't vertical it seems that it would help you swing faster if the gun was already moving a little bit...

[B45C22]

I've said it before and I think it is still relative - a video showing the flatness of a gun is so much more dependent upon the frame rate of the camera than the actual flatness of the gun. Low quality video makes all of them look dead flat.

[eric nielsen]

Yep - L9X25's more recent guns (for me) were much easier to shoot than the early flat-flat monsters.

Still remember when I'd tell Leo, "Pay you a dollar to beat my time!" hoping he would flame out with D's and Mikes. Good times.