is this a righteious DQ?

[Gryff]

I encountered something similar in an IDPA match a couple years back. Start position was an unloaded gun on a barrel. First shooter on the stage thinks he hears the RO say "Place your gun on the barrel," but the RO was actually telling the shooter that the stage will begin with the gun placed on the barrel. But due to accents and hearing protection, the message was confused.

Since nobody is down range, shooter draws his unloaded gun and places it on the barrel. RO immediately DQs the shooter. MD backs up the RO because he didn't see it, so he has to trust the ROs judgment.

In my opinion, it shouldn't have been a DQ because the shooter thought he was acting under the ROs command. Personally, I believe it is on the RO to be clear about instructions once the shooter has shown that he is ready to start.

[StraightUp_OG]

Weak sauce! Bogus DQ.

[aztecdriver]

I counsel RO's all the time not to say anything at all, if at all possible, when getting ready for the next shooter. With non-english or non-primary-english speaking competitors, it's best to stay quiet. As CRO, I have my crew understand that all "organizational" discussion should be done by the "clipboard" or "second" RO, so as not to run into this problem. But this one is doubly troublesome because he didn't only say something, he said the magic words. "Make Ready".

1. He issued the command, by saying the words. The context doesn't matter. No DQ.

2. As RM, given the context of the original post and not knowing anything else, I'd be inclined to overturn the ruling.

3. Similarly, if I was on the arb committee, I'd see this the same way. The only way I see this differently is if there was a pack of people standing directly infront of the shooter in such a way as drawing the gun out of the holster swept or most decidedly shouldn't have been done, but I don't see any comment as to where the rest of the squad was... Just because an RO makes a mistake doesn't mean I get to do something equally stupid like pointing a handgun at someone.

4. That being said, a disciplinary report might be justified here as someone loose with the range command in this way could cause problems and should be corrected. If it wasn't corrected by the RM, then it should be dealt with by NROI.

[Davidoff]

No way that's a DQ. If the words "make ready" came out of the RO's mouth while the shooter was in the start position and under the control of the RO then no violation of 10.5.1 has occured. RM should overturn the DQ and reinstate the shooter.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Davidoff

[guns_and_labs]

I agree with the above. The RO uttered the magic words, and the shooter responded. Not a righteous DQ.

[JAFO]

The DQ shouldn't have happened. At the very least it should have been overturned. I seem to recall from RO class that, language barriers being what they are, some competitors may be listening specifically for the official range commands, regardless of what is said immediately before or after. Saying the range commands in any context to someone else while the shooter is in the start position needs to be avoided. If I have to address someone else once the shooter is on the line, I make sure to tell the shooter to wait, don't move, etc, before I do. Hopefully the MD or other ROs will speak to that RO about avoiding this in the future.

[frag316]

Not to be a bandwagoner, but this is the RO's fault. I do my damnedest not to say the words "Make Ready" until the competitor is at the start position, the range is clear, and I'm ready to watch him/her load the gun.

My question is why there's a need to even say the words "Make Ready" in this situation at all. All the RO had to say was "GET OFF THE DAMN RANGE, WE'RE ABOUT TO START THE STAGE." No fuss, no muss, and it's all easy-to-say words in American English.

If I'd been there, I'd have talked to the guy. If he refused to listen, I'd have plead the competitor's case to the RM/MD.

If this were a major and I was the other RO on the stage, I'd lobby for the competitor. If I were the RM/MD or on the Arb Committee, I'd call shenanigans and admonish the RO.

[mikeg1005]

Make Ready

Are You Ready

Stand By

Stop

If you are finished unload and show clear

Unload and show clear

Hammer down, holster

Range is clear

Those are the ONLY, ONLY commands the RO should EVER say when there is a shooter on the line. My friend got ****ed by an RO who said "I think you have a squib" ... my friend proceeded to check, he didn't have a squib and the RO wouldn't give him a reshoot "because he didn't say stop".... at a level 2 match.

Edited April 16, 2014 by mikeg1005

[MarkCO]

Based on what the OP wrote, the RO was wrong. The RM should have been notified and should have spoken to the RO in an effort to try and correct future actions. If that did not occur, maybe the AD should be asked for advice.

[dejadoo]

Make Ready

Are You Ready

Stand By

Stop

If you are finished unload and show clear

Unload and show clear

Hammer down, holster

Range is clear

Those are the ONLY, ONLY commands the RO should EVER say when there is a shooter on the line. My friend got ****ed by an RO who said "I think you have a squib" ... my friend proceeded to check, he didn't have a squib and the RO wouldn't give him a reshoot "because he didn't say stop".... at a level 2 match.

He should have argued RO Interference.

[MrVvrroomm]

...he didn't say "Simon says"...

[remoandiris]

Make Ready

Are You Ready

Stand By

Stop

If you are finished unload and show clear

Unload and show clear

Hammer down, holster

Range is clear

Those are the ONLY, ONLY commands the RO should EVER say when there is a shooter on the line. My friend got ****ed by an RO who said "I think you have a squib" ... my friend proceeded to check, he didn't have a squib and the RO wouldn't give him a reshoot "because he didn't say stop".... at a level 2 match.

In the scenario that started this thread, the RO claims he never gave the MR command. The shooter heard the words MR, so he did. The RO didn't give them in a command, he gave them in a statement to another shooter in the area.

There is no rule, and I don't think there should be, that ROs can only utter the official commands when they're holding the timer. However, ROs need to take care of what they say when the shooter is at the starting position. And when the RO screws up, they need to own it. In the scenario that started this thread, the RO failed.

Edited April 16, 2014 by remoandiris

[Jaxshooter]

No way the shooter should have been DQ'd. If I was the CRO on the stage and one of my ROs did that I would immediately overturn the DQ.

[kevin c]

Something very similar has happened before, with the same RO. It's a personality thing, him sticking to the rules to a point that most would not go to, especially in situations where one could say that he inadvertently contributed to the problem: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=155838&hl= step&page=1

Two or three comments came out of that 100 post thread, besides the obvious that the RO needs some talking to (his personality traits are not going to change, though, imho).

His mistake, your fault.

Live with it, learn from it, and move on.

and the best, and most practical advice:

Always confirm the make ready command.

[Steve RA]

No !!!

[MarkCO]

Something very similar has happened before, with the same RO. It's a personality thing, him sticking to the rules to a point that most would not go to, especially in situations where one could say that he inadvertently contributed to the problem: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=155838&hl= step&page=1

Two or three comments came out of that 100 post thread, besides the obvious that the RO needs some talking to (his personality traits are not going to change, though, imho).

His mistake, your fault.

Live with it, learn from it, and move on.

and the best, and most practical advice:

Always confirm the make ready command.

If that is all accurate, then it sounds like the MD/RM are now the problem for allowing said person to RO. Someone needs to have the gumption to do the right thing or we risk him chasing away new shooters and making old ones mad.

[spanky]

This is a primary example why the ONLY words an RO should say to the on deck shooter are "make ready."

And people look at me funny when they come up to the start position and I only say "make ready" and don't offer any conversation.

[High Lord Gomer]

*That's* not why they look at you funny!

[frag316]

--snip--

My friend got ****ed by an RO who said "I think you have a squib" ... my friend proceeded to check, he didn't have a squib and the RO wouldn't give him a reshoot "because he didn't say stop".... at a level 2 match.

Wait, what?

Yeah, that's RO interference. Hard to argue that one any other way. I could make a couple of guesses who that was, if they're a common fixture at big matches.

[spanky]

*That's* not why they look at you funny!

You're probably right.

[blueeyedme]

Agree with many of the above----the RO shouldn't have issued the DQ in the first place. (The RO screwed up---the shooter followed the range command given.) RM, when called, should have overturned it immediately. If I were on the arb committee, assuming all facts as stated were the entirety of the situation, would vote to overturn the DQ immediately.

And would suggest that the RM counsel the RO to watch what he says, as his mistake lead directly to the situation occurring.

^^^This.

[spanky]

IMO, while it's up to the competitor to make darn sure it's time to gas 'er up, I think the RO should have swallowed his pride if he actually said the words "make ready." That's a very unreasonable dq, IMO.

[twodownzero]

I think it is pretty clear that given the events as told this is a bogus reason to DQ someone. If I was the shooter I would have asked for the MD right after showing clear and holstering.

So, how did this play out?

Did the Shooter ask for the MD after the DQ?

If so, what did the MD say?

The MD has no power over the match once it's begun. Asking for the MD would get you nowhere.

[Sarge]

I think it is pretty clear that given the events as told this is a bogus reason to DQ someone. If I was the shooter I would have asked for the MD right after showing clear and holstering.

So, how did this play out?

Did the Shooter ask for the MD after the DQ?

If so, what did the MD say?

The MD has no power over the match once it's begun. Asking for the MD would get you nowhere.

The MD would have gotten him the RM I'm sure. Lot's of newer shooters in some of these recent threads and not everybody has figured out the hierarchy yet.

[WashingtonShooter]

Completely illegitimate in my view, this is nothing but punishment against a shooter for a mistake made by an RO

Exactly why the ROs should only stick to the range commands in the books. "we are going to make ready" is not a range command.

I would arbitrate that in a second. On a arb committee, I would overturn it based on the scenario you described.

This ^^