IDPA and the foolishness

[BillR1]

Actually despite the way idpa is perceived with the silly vest etc, I think it will continue to get bigger until the prices and shortage of ammo and components come back down to reality. I see many shooters now looking hard at the cost of our sport and it is significant, by the time I add my ammo cost entry fee and gas to shoot a typical uspsa high round count club match I'm a bit over 100 bucks for three hours of sunday morning entertainment with the shorter round and stage count idpa reduces this cost quite a bit but still gives you that weekend fix of playing with your gun, just not quite as much fun... :-)

Yikes. My local matches cost $8 entry, $2 gas, and $18 ammo (150 rds). Cheaper than going dirtbiking, or taking my wife to the farmer's market.

Perhaps you are doing it wrong.

Must be nice! I'll drop close to $100 for my IDPA match tomorrow morning. There's $15 entry fee, $60 in gas (2 hours each way), $12 in ammo (90 rounds) and ~$12 for lunch on the way home.

Worth every penny!!

If you can afford a $12 lunch, you're obviously made of money anyway. When we go to further matches, most of us carpool, and I drive a subcompact for most tasks, so 2 hrs each way = $25 for me. Wages are low in the potato fields.

We take turns driving also. Tomorrow just happens to be my turn. I've never been fond of tiny cars, and my Jeep DOES suck the gas.

[motosapiens]

Actually despite the way idpa is perceived with the silly vest etc, I think it will continue to get bigger until the prices and shortage of ammo and components come back down to reality. I see many shooters now looking hard at the cost of our sport and it is significant, by the time I add my ammo cost entry fee and gas to shoot a typical uspsa high round count club match I'm a bit over 100 bucks for three hours of sunday morning entertainment with the shorter round and stage count idpa reduces this cost quite a bit but still gives you that weekend fix of playing with your gun, just not quite as much fun... :-)

Yikes. My local matches cost $8 entry, $2 gas, and $18 ammo (150 rds). Cheaper than going dirtbiking, or taking my wife to the farmer's market.

Perhaps you are doing it wrong.

Must be nice! I'll drop close to $100 for my IDPA match tomorrow morning. There's $15 entry fee, $60 in gas (2 hours each way), $12 in ammo (90 rounds) and ~$12 for lunch on the way home.

Worth every penny!!

If you can afford a $12 lunch, you're obviously made of money anyway. When we go to further matches, most of us carpool, and I drive a subcompact for most tasks, so 2 hrs each way = $25 for me. Wages are low in the potato fields.

We take turns driving also. Tomorrow just happens to be my turn. I've never been fond of tiny cars, and my Jeep DOES suck the gas.

I'm not fond of tiny cars either but I'm fond of the money I save by only driving my truck when I need it.

[Thomas H]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFE70SAHSAw

Here is a link of someone shooting that stage. Most people ran it the way this shooter did. There were several that chose to continue to the left after engaging the target in the open and then getting the targets on the far right later. I also saw a few that stood well back from the wall so they could move to the side faster. (and it made cover tougher for us to call) A diagram would be very helpful, but I don't have one available.

Ok, choosing different ways to shoot the stage that are much slower doesn't make for a really good example...

But it is true that someone could have shot that stage differently, so that does support your contention. I'll note that is the first stage I've seen where that is actually true, however. I haven't shot or seen many IDPA matches, but just like almost everyone else in this thread, pretty much every IDPA stage I've ever seen (scenario or not) was almost completely scripted and about the only choice you had was where you were going to reload.

[jualdeaux]

Nevermind.

Edited June 3, 2014 by jualdeaux

[Quag]

I read this thread before I SOed a IDPA Level III state championship match last weekend. Because we were short handed I was assigned to 2 different pits 2 stages per pit. I ran the clip board so this gave me a change to sit back and observe how the shooters shot the stages and if they all shot it one way or different ways. For 2 of the 4 stages the shooters generally shot it the same way regardless if they were beginners or Masters. On the other 2 stages there were 2 distinct ways and maybe more to shoot the stages. In one stage if you were fast you could run a lot and shoot close up or shoot from a distance and save the running time but risk hitting a NTs. There was about a 50/50 split between 130 or so shooters. To my suprise one of the runners had the fastest time and was most accurate.

If you want to really see variability in ways shooters choose to shoot IDPA stages attend the Carolina Cup or The New England Regionals (I've never been to a national). Its very clear to me that there is not only 1 way to shoot a IDPA stage. Thats just flat out wrong. That being said from the USPSA matches I've shot in there are typically more ways to shoot a USPSA COF than an IDPA COF.

As far as the whining there will always be one guy that stands out. This guy totally exposed himself to a threat by going out in the open and shot his target even walking right up to it. Even the novices did not not do that. He was an expert and the only one in the match with a real whine to the match director. Cry, cry cry. We were really puzzled, he made no sense at all. He did not have a case. It was kind of embarressing. I don't think he was USPSA, I just think he just had a brain fart and was pissed. One of the USPSA shooters that had not shot IDPA in years, came up to us at the end of his match and said he actually had a good time and would come back. But he rationalized this by saying it was our match/SOs that were good and the rest of IDPA still sucked.

To tell the truth I really don't care I shoot both and stay away from the whiners in both.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Quag

[GOF]

I saw an interesting chart on the IDPA Forum under 'Match Chat'. Rick Lund (central FL) apparently did some research on the classification percentage of IDPA members as of 4/30/2014. It showed a percentage break down from DM through Novice. The total number of classified shooters as of that date was around 17,000. But, it didn't account for IDPA shooters who were classified in more than one division. They were part of the 17,000 total. I know that I was classified on that date in four divisions, and my shooting group of a dozen folks are all multi-division classified in two to 5 divisions.

When you start deducting the shooters who are classified in multiple divisions that 17,000 figure could shrink significantly, maybe to as little as 10,000 (or less) classified shooters.

I wonder if that decreased number is a reflection on the 'new & improved" Rule Book? I know IDPA lost a significant percentage of existing SOs. Did they also lose members?

[v1911]

Why has no one mentioned the increase in NEW SOs? The decrease in veteran SOs doesn't have to translate in a reduction in membership, some just decide that they'd rather show up to shoot rather than score and run a timer.

We need to worry less about those that have left the sport and focus on those that have joined.

[GOF]

One might consider why many have left the sport, if in fact, many have.

As for NEW SOs.... as one who has been committed to IDPA since 2005, and a SO since 2007 (with several National Championship, one World Championship, and numerous State and Regional championship trophies on my "I Love Me" wall) I... and many other experienced shooters... can tell you that the biggest problem in IDPA (at least prior to the new Rule Book with the excessive number of 'etcs'.) has been inconsistent scoring from SOs with limited competitive experience and shooting abilities who seem to feel that they get a bonus for every PE they call... even if they don't fully understand the Rules. I have spoken to one AC who recounts stories of SO candidates showing up at SO school 'cattle calls' with nothing more than a receipt to show that they just joined IDPA, and hadn't even received their membership cards yet!

A military organization that loses its experienced non-coms will suffer great loses in performance. What happens when IDPA starts losing their veteran SOs... as has been happening. Do you want a E-2 private running a platoon?

IDPA has compounded this problem by reducing the number of SOIs in many states. In Florida, for example, we lost about half of ours (including the two that certified me in 2007). This was not an issue of their performance. They did just fine. It was just some sort of 'corporate restructuring".... which didn't do the 'corporate' much good at all. Now, SO classes are restricted to a degree.

How is this good? How do you lose veteran & experienced SOs, and replace them at a lesser level with brand NEW SOs and expect experienced shooters to get tired of crappy calls and just go somewhere else to shoot?

[Chuck D]

Why has no one mentioned the increase in NEW SOs? The decrease in veteran SOs doesn't have to translate in a reduction in membership, some just decide that they'd rather show up to shoot rather than score and run a timer.

We need to worry less about those that have left the sport and focus on those that have joined.

No....not even close.

Every shooting organization, not just IDPA which we happen to be talking about here needs to focus on MEMBERSHIP RETENTION.

You can sign up all the "new members" you want BUT unless they continue to pay membership dues AND participate at SOME level, they really aren't "active members" ...they just "donate" to the cause like a citizen that sends checks to a political entity but never enters the ballot box and actually pulls the lever to vote.

Where IDPA faces a significant challenge is when these so called "new members" finally educate themselves with regards to defensive pistol theory and practices and begin to question the established practices in the IDPA rulebook and the application of those practices at local matches by SO's who "interperate" the rules from a subjective position based upon personal beliefs versus a "concrete" rules application method. It is at this point where members "bail out" and long time SOI's quit and to continue to ignore these factors will cause IDPA to continue to suffer from a membership retention problem.

Every shooting sport goes through this stage at one point or another in their development. To ignore or explain it away is counter productive and should NEVER be seen as bashing...it's constructive criticism.

[Dkrad1935]

In the latest IDPA magazine Joyce said membership was all time high at 25000 members. I doubt retention is as bad as folks on here would like it to be.

[v1911]

Maybe what I posted earlier could be clarified a bit more.

I think we can all agree that HQ isn't going to change many of the new rules rolled out last year no matter how much it's paying members speak out against some of the changes. They also don't seem to be in any rush to try to bring those that have left back into the fold. That tells me that life for IDPA will go on. If it wasn't, they would have seen the dramatic drop in members that some of us seem to believe has happened and made changes to lessen the blow.

I think that my personal lack of experience (member since 2013) with the sport has enabled me to just shrug my shoulders at the changes. It's just a game to me. I don't have to understand the changes made, I just play by the rules and am still able to enjoy myself.

I'm pretty sure that at some point each SO was new. So instead of posting about the past, let's build the newest members up to be as capable as those they have ha to replace.

[GOF]

If I was in Berryville AR, and printing the magazine, I could say membership was whatever I wanted it to be, Is there anyone doing fact checking? I still go back to Rick L's chart of classified shooters on the IDPA Forum. If those numbers are correct (and I know Rick L, and don't suspect he has falsely created those figures) then there is a discrepancy to some degree.

Anybody care to fact check and determine what that discrepancy is? It doesn't really make a difference. Unless, of course, you travel a few hundred miles to a sanctioned match, pay for travel, several days in a hotel, numerous meals in restaurants, pay a $100 + entry fee... and then get DQed by a new and inexperienced SO who "interprets" .. ETC... a bit differently than most..... and then have a new MD state " I stand up for my SOs".

There could be a reason why the only Top shooters attending major IDPA sanctioned matches are those sponsored shooters who are under contract and paid/required to be there.

[Chuck D]

In the latest IDPA magazine Joyce said membership was all time high at 25000 members. I doubt retention is as bad as folks on here would like it to be.

Really....IDPA has 25000 members because Joyce says so ? Do you think Joyce would admit the rulebook and some involved with IDPA culture has cost the organization membership ?

Surf YouTube and view videos about some SO's and SOI's who openly state "it isn't about whether we shoot well or not...for us it's a social thing" and then come back and tell me how the "only true defensive pistol sport" is all about defensive pistol and not social activities and cookie recipies. A poster on here correctly stated that most DM's who frequent the sport so do because they are under contract to do so. That should in and of itself be for thought.

It was just this past weekend when I had a long talk with a former match director about being fired from an MD position in a MAJOR IDPA tournament over his advice of not using the term "in the real world" because it creates an illusion that the "real world conditions" are predictable. Fact is the majority of people setting policy at IDPA have NEVER served this nation as a member of the armed forces, served as Law Enforcement Officers, or have NEVER fired a shot in self defense. The other component that sets policy have never developed past the Weaver Stance.

It bears repeating....it's about membership retention, not paid people who last a maximum of two years and move on.

[Dkrad1935]

Haha. I don't know what your talking about. But if she says 25000 members. I beleive her. If she is lying, I will still beleive her and it will be ok.

The point of my post was that that membership level equals close to a million dollars in revenue per year.

I could really care less if people running IDPA have fired shots in self defense. Are you saying legitimate shooting sports can only be run by ninjas? I still am not sure what your point is.

[Chuck D]

Haha. I don't know what your talking about. But if she says 25000 members. I beleive her. If she is lying, I will still beleive her and it will be ok.

The point of my post was that that membership level equals close to a million dollars in revenue per year.

I could really care less if people running IDPA have fired shots in self defense. Are you saying legitimate shooting sports can only be run by ninjas? I still am not sure what your point is.

My point is two fold and rather simple to understand....

1. IDPA's membership numbers are not true representations of their ACTUAL membership totals. I believe you'd find that once you factor out the members who quit the organization or pay membership dues and never make it to the range for a sanctioned match the numbers are easily cut in half.

2. How is an SO or SOI or IDPA HQ guru going to lecture ANYONE who has actual self defense training and experience (and I'm not talking about watching Tac TV or taking a weekend class from Rob Pincus either) on "what happens in the real world?"

It's clear IDPA is raking in a boatload of cash....and like anything in the "real world" what goes up eventually comes back down thereby rendering "membership retention " an important factor and when your hobby is racing airplanes that cost in excess of 350,000 dollars each...a million dollars in revenue doesn't go as far as you (or I) think it might.

The "ninjas" wear fishing vests and play cardboard gunfighters on the weekends all the while pontificating to others what happens in the "real world." The ninjas don't make up the vast majority of the IDPA membership BUT they are the most vocal , are the ones in charge of policy at HQ and have cost the sport SO's, SOI's and members all the while fleecing the overwhelming majority of the membership out of their hard earned money of which they receive a membership card, a second rate publication named Tactical Journal, and a "not so user" friendly website, while the organization rides the "tactical wave" for as long as it is possible.

I hope you don't trust the statements of your Congressman/Senator, doctor, auto mechanic, and HVAC repair person with the same "blind faith" you put in Joyce Wilson.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Chuck D

[Dkrad1935]

U seem very bitter. I will refund your membership if that will make you feel better

[Chuck D]

U seem very bitter. I will refund your membership if that will make you feel better

I'm not bitter...I'm being honest. There's a difference.

When I sent my membership card back to HQ...I told them to keep the money. If you're ACTUALLY from HQ, I'm certain you'd know that and I'm certain my 40 bucks was already spent on aviation fuel anyway...lol.

I'll just take my FTDR and carry on thank you.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Chuck D

[Dkrad1935]

Haha. I am not from hq. Although I am about 90 minutes west of there. I work at the hq of a much larger more sinister organization.

[Chuck D]

All organizations are "sinister".....

[CHARLES D]

U seem very bitter. I will refund your membership if that will make you feel better

I am bitter. Very bitter. Thanks for the offer to refund membership. Let's see 16 years x 40 bucks a year comes out to about 640 bucks. Just send a check to the USPSA Junior Program.

Thanks

[ctay]

U seem very bitter. I will refund your membership if that will make you feel better

I am bitter. Very bitter. Thanks for the offer to refund membership. Let's see 16 years x 40 bucks a year comes out to about 640 bucks. Just send a check to the USPSA Junior Program.

Thanks

We need a like button...

[BillR1]

As usual, the reports of the demise of IDPA are greatly exaggerated. Our latest SO training class was full with several people on the waiting list. We're also seeing record numbers of shooters in our local matches. The sanctioned matches fill quickly also. From what I'm seeing in this area, there's simply no reason not to believe the stats Joyce posted in the IDPA magazine concerning the increasing membership.

SOs get burned out and leave. That happens with any sport. There ARE people waiting and willing to fill those vacancies however.

Edited June 16, 2014 by BillR1

[Rick88]

Even though I'm not an idpa shooter I agree with bill on the above post...I would be interested in reading this magazine, is there a way to see it online?

[Jane]

Even though I'm not an idpa shooter I agree with bill on the above post...I would be interested in reading this magazine, is there a way to see it online?

http://www.idpa.com/tactical-journal

[Dkrad1935]

U seem very bitter. I will refund your membership if that will make you feel better

I'm not bitter...I'm being honest. There's a difference.

When I sent my membership card back to HQ...I told them to keep the money. If you're ACTUALLY from HQ, I'm certain you'd know that and I'm certain my 40 bucks was already spent on aviation fuel anyway...lol.

I'll just take my FTDR and carry on thank you.

Sorry chuck. You claimed non bitterness and refused my offer. Then upon reflection realized you had made a mistake and changed your mind. Day late and a ......