Design YOUR ultimate multi-gun match

[RiggerJJ]

9 stages 3 days, 3x 3gun, 3x 2 gun, 3x 1 gun. A couple of stages with slung rifle, one with slung shotgun. Natural terrain. Fastest time on any stage is 60 seconds. Lots of choices. Lots of long rifle shots,a few out to 400, most 200-300. 4+ moa rifle targets, with bright colored backers that are not too big, just enough of the backer visible so the target can be seen with the naked eye. Minimal stage reset, no paper targets or falling steel past where the shooter stops, so reset is done when the shooter is done. Pistol out to 50ish, slugs out to 100. Some select slug loading, maybe include some buckshot. Abandonment done muzzle straight down in barrels for long guns, buckets for pistols. Both should hold the abandon gun muzzle down with no possibility of the gun falling. Professional ROs that enjoy their job.

JMHO

jj

[theKenny]

As I expected some conflicting ideas. I appreciate all the feedback guys. Couple questions.

A few mentioned no bonus targets. What is a bonus target and why don't you like them?

For those that like slung weapons, why do you like it and how does it add to or help the match?

Thanks!

some other matches have had bonus targets such as clays activated by a popper, hit it- xseconds

or a target at +X yards on a long rifle stage -x seconds

both would be treated a disappearing targets

not really in favor but I cannot give you a reason. maybe a little gimmicky?

slung weapons adds a degree of difficulty.

Are you going to need ROs for the match and how would that work?

[StealthyBlagga]

If you run the match under USPSA time-plus rules, I would advise against using bonus (minus-time) targets as you run the risk of a negative time which cannot be computed for score. Better to use regular time-plus scoring, with the option of designating any more challenging long-range rifle targets "high value" to make them worth shooting.

Edited February 24, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[mr50mag]

mr50mag, on 21 Feb 2014 - 5:15 PM, said:

Being a USPSA multigun match won't that limit what you can and cannot do?

Will it be a USPSA sanctioned match?

When it was in Georgia it was a great match, but being a USPSA sanctioned event it suffered on the attendance and prize table side.

In what ways does it limit or suffer Mr50?

This match will be USPSA but I'm not opposed to going 3GN or outlaw or something for subsequent years if that makes for happier customers.

I guess what I meant is you're soliciting suggestions from a hardcore Outlaw group of people.

I've seen USPSA stages thrown out as illegal for the smallest things being overlooked.

Can you make people use slings, or climb obstacles with slung guns or all the other things people are suggesting? Maybe you can. Why saddle yourself with it to begin with?

The area 6 suffered because of the perception of USPSA, the prize table distribution and the general disliking of USPSA's version of Multigun.

When the GA State Outlaw quarterly match was at capacity consistently for $80 with plaques and the Area 6 was barely at half capacity for $160 and a prize table it left little doubt that attaching USPSA to it was not a smart thing to do.

It basically killed off 3-Gun in ATL for about 2 years.

It became obvious there was a reason why no other major Multigun match in the country was a USPSA sanctioning event.

My only suggestion would be to use whatever means necessary to make a great and successful match.

[orange68]

i like andy horner shoots. follow his lead.

also like Dean deturks. set ups. he always throws in a left hand rifle or pistol. this seperates some shooters.

[SmittyFL]

Great info guys. Thanks.

Formulating a plan...announcement this week.

Keep any suggestions coming.

[theKenny]

Maybe a side stage or 3?

1 pistol

1 rifle

1 shotgun

[Bryan 45]

My opinions on slings from a match admin POV- it reduces staging time. If the rifle is staged somewhere before the start, the competitor must put it there under supervision, after the range is clear, and make it ready, whichever condition that is. But if it's slung at the start, empty of course, then the competitor can make it ready on the clock.

As a competitor- I enjoy seeing and dealing with how all of my gear interacts with each other. I saw a shooter at a recent match skipping from one position to the next while shooting his shotgun, because his single point sling was allowing his rifle to beat him about the legs. As soon as he was finished, he asked what kind of sling he needed because this one "doesn't work."

The sling is no different to the rifle than the holster is to the pistol. We do a few table starts here and there w/ handgun, but predominately the pistol is drawn from the holster at start because that's where handguns belong.

My opinion of USPSA for multi-gun- it may seriously limit your control as Match Director, Stage Designer, even prop and target builder. I do not have an intimate knowledge of USPSA 3 gun rules, but a shooter at our match just yesterday asked me if a paper target was an "illegal" target because the stakes were stapled to the front of the target instead of the back. (This was an oversight on our part, but not realized until the end of the day.) My response was "there are no illegal targets". As a non-affiliated match director, if I wanted to buy 1K cans of chicken noodle soup and use them as rifle targets at 30 yards, I can.

Edit to add- as far as # of guns, 2 gun stages are fun, 1 gun stages can be made fun, but if there is a pistol only stage at a 3 gun match, it better be with IR/nods.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Bryan 45

[MiniUzi]

Well Said Bryan 45, even if you have anger issues toward chicken noodle soup

[Bryan 45]

Well Said Bryan 45, even if you have anger issues toward chicken noodle soup

never saw my idea on bunnies, did you? White, fuzzy bunnies. The hits show up real well.

[MetropolisLake]

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, my opinion don’t count because I don’t know what I’m doing, but since you asked about MY idea of the ultimate scenario, meaning simply an opinion, this is what I would like to see, but have not so far, and some of which I understandably never will:

1. Hunting oriented stages. Meaning, just as one hair brained example, provide a 30-06 with a good long distance scope and one round. Make somebody hit a pie plate at 200 yards or something in a typical hunting position. After that first round, the “deer” runs off so you don’t get to try until you hit it, you either hit it once or you don’t. Put clays or something up in trees to mimic a squirrel or something. Even forcing people to occasionally shoot off-hand at any decent distance would be interesting. Have a coyote target hidden in the weeds maybe. I’d like to see stages where a typical 3x9 or 4x12 scope is perfectly normal and wouldn’t screw you up on “hoser” stages. Basically anything that could be practice for hunting where a more surgical and accurate shot at mid distance is required.

2. Flying clays. Running through a whole box of shells as fast as you can is fun and all but I’d like for stages to incorporate skeet. Other matches have tried this and supposedly really good shotgunners did awful, so the idea isn’t popular, and it’s hard to translate that into a “time plus” scoring system, but you know, it’s THE critical shotgunning skill in the real world. I don’t know how somebody can call themselves a good shotgunner if they can’t hit flying clays worth a crap.

3. Transitions. I like the idea of what appears to be the FNH and 2-gun stuff. I don’t particularly like all the bucket and trash can dumping and table retrieving. I’d like to see you start with the rifle then quickly transition to the pistol by slinging the rifle. Seems like that’s a simple request but I never see it, probably safety concerns, but still.

4. More realistic retrievals. I’d like to see things like a car jacking scenario where you start with your pistol and have to get out of the car and retrieve a rifle from the trunk, or similarly, go retrieve your shotgun from a makeshift “safe”. Anything to spice it up from long guns laying in the perfect position on a table.

5. Lots of decent sized pistol steel. I am starting to love the sound of steel being hit with a pistol but it doesn’t happen all that often. Lots of poppers and plate racks would be fun. I realize these are expensive though.

6. Lots of reactive targets. Poppers as mentioned earlier, but there’s also swinging and twisting paper targets. These are a lot of fun. I’ve seen them in USPSA but not 3-gun yet.

7. A good flow. I like stages that have an obvious flow to them, where you are walking through an obvious path through a sea of targets. I don’t like ones that give you a ton of choices on what order and gun to do things in and you have to study it for awhile. If I were better I'd probably like the challenge but where I am now, it's more fun if I don't have to think too much.

8. Woods walks. Hitting stuff hidden in the woods while running down a trail is cool.

9. Everything on the same day. If I could somehow shoot 9 stages in a day then go home I’d be all about it.

Edited February 24, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[1chota]

Having a crew of tapers and setters is nice. ( Moreso if they are attractive young ladies we can talk to while not shooting.)

SERIOUSLY, I have been to matches where certain groups were recruited to set and tape( FFA, Boy Scouts, ROTC,ETC.) and the shooters kicked in a few $$$ for a fund raiser for whatever particular group it was. Very nice to be able to just concentrate on shooting and generated a lot of do-re-mi for the group.

[Sterling White]

9 stages 3 days, 3x 3gun, 3x 2 gun, 3x 1 gun. A couple of stages with slung rifle, one with slung shotgun. Natural terrain. Fastest time on any stage is 60 seconds. Lots of choices. Lots of long rifle shots,a few out to 400, most 200-300. 4+ moa rifle targets, with bright colored backers that are not too big, just enough of the backer visible so the target can be seen with the naked eye. Minimal stage reset, no paper targets or falling steel past where the shooter stops, so reset is done when the shooter is done. Pistol out to 50ish, slugs out to 100. Some select slug loading, maybe include some buckshot. Abandonment done muzzle straight down in barrels for long guns, buckets for pistols. Both should hold the abandon gun muzzle down with no possibility of the gun falling. Professional ROs that enjoy their job.

JMHO

jj

^^^^ this ^^^^

I'll just remind JJ of this and what he said about bright colored backers and keeping the targets visible! Especially for limited shooters.....LOL

[HRider]

Stage one: Board Helicopter with handgun holstered and rifle slung, magazine inserted with bolt forward on empty chamber. When helo is in position, timer starts and you charge rifle and engage as many steel targets as you can as the helo makes a pass through a valley. As helicopter lands, you exit, dump your rifle, draw the pistol, charge it and engage some pistol steel while working your way down a street between two buildings.

Stage two: Seated in the gunner's seat of a Stryker, you engage targets (old vehicles) with the .50cal while the driver traverses a course. When the Stryker stops and the gate drops, you grab your rifle out of a rack and run into a building, climb the stairs and start engaging steel rifle targets through the windows in the "town" across from the building that you are in. You work room to room until all targets are neutralized.

Stage three: Shoot your shotgun at some 75-100yard slug steel from a swinging bridge (10-12 steel), dump shotgun, draw pistol and run into house and clear all rooms, including a couple of dark rooms.

Stage four: Start prone behind an M240B, fire at old vehicles down range until empty (25-50rds, vehicles 300-350yds), pick up rifle and run down embankment engaging close paper and intermediate steel for a while, then transition to pistol and shoot more paper and steel.

Stage five: Start with shotgun, then transition to Thompson stage gun, run through real trench engaging targets set into recesses in the trench wall until Thompson is empty, dump it and draw pistol to finish out.

Stage six: Using the light mounted on your rifle, clear the cave. Lots of movers, swingers maybe an MGM running man or two in cave.

Stage seven: Rifle slung, magazine inserted and bolt forward on an empty chamber, pistol loaded and holstered. Start standing in front of door to shoot house with BAR loaded, kick open door and hose the first room with the BAR, abandon BAR and continue on with your rifle and finish with your pistol.

Stage eight: Seated in boat, shoot twenty-one thrown clays (three different trap throwers) with shotgun, abandon shotgun and shoot rifle steel until empty, transition to pistol and finish out (10-12 total pistol steel, maybe a plate rack and a Texas star, or two Texas stars, whatever you like).

Stage nine: 40 something round shotgun jungle run, some pistol at the end.

Match fee should be around $100 per shooter, lunch provided each day (I started to say have people reset for you, but I don't want to get greedy). I am sure that I left something out, so feel free to add to it.

Now, back to reality, nine stages that are challenging, but do able, 240 second timeout, rifle out to 350-400 (4moa targets with backers for iron shooters), natural terrain is better, shotgun slugs out to 100, some buckshot, lots of birdshot, cool stage props (make use of old cars).

Hurley

[SecretNY]

Thanks brother!

[millsusaf]

Stage one: Board Helicopter with handgun holstered and rifle slung, magazine inserted with bolt forward on empty chamber. When helo is in position, timer starts and you charge rifle and engage as many steel targets as you can as the helo makes a pass through a valley. As helicopter lands, you exit, dump your rifle, draw the pistol, charge it and engage some pistol steel while working your way down a street between two buildings.

Stage two: Seated in the gunner's seat of a Stryker, you engage targets (old vehicles) with the .50cal while the driver traverses a course. When the Stryker stops and the gate drops, you grab your rifle out of a rack and run into a building, climb the stairs and start engaging steel rifle targets through the windows in the "town" across from the building that you are in. You work room to room until all targets are neutralized.

Stage three: Shoot your shotgun at some 75-100yard slug steel from a swinging bridge (10-12 steel), dump shotgun, draw pistol and run into house and clear all rooms, including a couple of dark rooms.

Stage four: Start prone behind an M240B, fire at old vehicles down range until empty (25-50rds, vehicles 300-350yds), pick up rifle and run down embankment engaging close paper and intermediate steel for a while, then transition to pistol and shoot more paper and steel.

Stage five: Start with shotgun, then transition to Thompson stage gun, run through real trench engaging targets set into recesses in the trench wall until Thompson is empty, dump it and draw pistol to finish out.

Stage six: Using the light mounted on your rifle, clear the cave. Lots of movers, swingers maybe an MGM running man or two in cave.

Stage seven: Rifle slung, magazine inserted and bolt forward on an empty chamber, pistol loaded and holstered. Start standing in front of door to shoot house with BAR loaded, kick open door and hose the first room with the BAR, abandon BAR and continue on with your rifle and finish with your pistol.

Stage eight: Seated in boat, shoot twenty-one thrown clays (three different trap throwers) with shotgun, abandon shotgun and shoot rifle steel until empty, transition to pistol and finish out (10-12 total pistol steel, maybe a plate rack and a Texas star, or two Texas stars, whatever you like).

Stage nine: 40 something round shotgun jungle run, some pistol at the end.

Match fee should be around $100 per shooter, lunch provided each day (I started to say have people reset for you, but I don't want to get greedy). I am sure that I left something out, so feel free to add to it.

/SNIP/

Hurley

I vote for this guy

[SmittyFL]

Thanks again for all input. I have received a few pm's and many emails as well.

We have a helicopter (not a flying one), a couple vehicles, room for two long range stages (250 and 650 available) and plenty of bays for anything else.

Right now I'm thinking 8 stages, 3 three gun, 3 or 4 two gun, and 1 or 2 one gun. Half day schedules, prize table Sunday after shooting.

Don't know that I'm a big fan of slings though I can see how it can speed up the match. The crowd seems spit on that so the jury is still out. I'm going to run some budget stuff and I'll open registration by April 1.

[Bryan 45]

Thanks for taking this on. I'm looking forward to more details and just so happen to have a little free time in the end of June.

[Pizzim]

8 stages, no single gun stages, some stretched shots (200+) as many longer rifle shot as you can make work (75+) some flying clays would be fun and ya if you can work the helicopter into a stage that would be fun.

Either way im just waiting for registration to open.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Pizzim

[RiggerJJ]

1/2 skedule works, if there is time built in for shooters to reset kits and reload mags, prob 10 minutes or so would work. 14 on a squad on 90 minute stages that turns shooters every 6 minutes will not work. Also its tough to do 1/2 day skeds if in natural terrain with stages spread out over a large distance, even with stages right next to each other it can be challenging. It has been my experience that most 1/2 day skeds over rush the shooters. I believe Superstition tried it one year and most shooter asked to have full day the following year, and their stages are mostly right next to each other.

Botton line, it can work well, if planned well.

jmho

jj

[StealthyBlagga]

1/2 skedule works, if there is time built in for shooters to reset kits and reload mags, prob 10 minutes or so would work. 14 on a squad on 90 minute stages that turns shooters every 6 minutes will not work. Also its tough to do 1/2 day skeds if in natural terrain with stages spread out over a large distance, even with stages right next to each other it can be challenging. It has been my experience that most 1/2 day skeds over rush the shooters. I believe Superstition tried it one year and most shooter asked to have full day the following year, and their stages are mostly right next to each other.

Botton line, it can work well, if planned well.

jmho

jj

At SMM3G we did the traditional half-day schedule in 2010 and struggled to keep the match on time... folks were shooting in the dark. Faced with dumbing-down the stages, cutting competitor numbers or going to a full-day schedule, we went with the full-day in 2011, 2012 and 2013, and for the most part the match ran on-time. The full-day schedule is safer for an ambitious 3-gun match as it isolates any slow-running stages from impacting the other stages. However, it seems like most competitors don't like the full-day schedule... they apparently prefer to get the stages done and be away from the range ASAP. With this in mind, the SMM3G match committee is going to try to make half-day work again for the 2014 match... hopefully our experienced RO cadre will be able to keep things on-track.

Personally, as a competitor I prefer the full-day schedule. JJ is correct that it gives the shooter time to get their kit together and watch the preceding squad attacking the next stage. I think I perform better on a full-day schedule - after all I am there to shoot, not to sight see. When I shot the 2013 USPSA MG Nationals, their half-day schedule kicked my butt and I was constantly scrambling to load mags and not miss the next briefing (which I did on a couple of stages). I'd recommend the full-day schedule for your first match until you know how efficiently everything runs... nothing is more inequitable than competitors having to engage long-range rifle targets in fading twilight.

[MarkCO]

Thanks again for all input. I have received a few pm's and many emails as well.

We have a helicopter (not a flying one), a couple vehicles, room for two long range stages (250 and 650 available) and plenty of bays for anything else.

Right now I'm thinking 8 stages, 3 three gun, 3 or 4 two gun, and 1 or 2 one gun. Half day schedules, prize table Sunday after shooting.

Don't know that I'm a big fan of slings though I can see how it can speed up the match. The crowd seems spit on that so the jury is still out. I'm going to run some budget stuff and I'll open registration by April 1.

Half day works fine. FNH does it and so does Noveske. Both ran ahead of schedule.

Slings are more than speed up a match. They allow more flexibility in stage design and in fact, stage plans. But it is also a skillset many shooters don't want to work on getting ready for much less practice for. Those who can do it realize the benefits, those who can not usually want to see them go away.

[P.E. Kelley]

I can and I don't like sling stages.

[outerlimits]

I can and I don't like sling stages.

+10

[Benelli Chick]

I can and I don't like sling stages.

I can...pretty well, I design stages with them to speed up the stages and help RO's by not having so many staged guns...and I am sooooo slow shooting one gun with the other slung and it makes me more tired!! So, I use 'em and I don't love 'em!

But, I'm working on losing weight and maybe when I'm a lean, mean 3-Gun machine, I'll think they're fun!!!