Design YOUR ultimate multi-gun match

[MarkCO]

Just to be clear, even though I like them, I don't put them in my stage designs.

[kellyn]

I like sling stages!

I like single gun stages. I think we do too much Multigun on stages just to say we did.

I like alternative starts: unloaded guns, pick up off tables/glove boxes/trunks of cars.

Speaking of cars, I think matches should include stages from in and around cars.

I like using the shotgun its fullest extent i.e. including sporting clays/aerial targets.

I like technical offhand rifle and pistol shooting.

I hate shooting slugs on tiny targets past 50.

I like a standards stage (gasp) even though USPSA/SOF/Andy Horner are the only ones ballsy enough to run one.

I like Horner scoring (gasp part 2)

I like target recognition stages a la Kyle Lamb's long dead match.

I liked Kyle Lamb's long dead match A LOT.

I like consistent target presentations so iron sight shooters are on equal footing.

I like support side shooting.

I like stages with choices.

I like movers and swingers for rifle.

I like more than 1 "long range" rifle stage.

If stages are worth 100 points each, there should not be any stages less than 45 sec-1 min. No 15 sec stages.

[Bryan 45]

I won't quote the whole thing- but I like Kelly's post! And I thought I was the only one that liked Horner scoring. Besides Andy, of course.

I enjoy mid range rifle (100-225 or so) from positions other than prone and reverse kneeling w/ a sturdy barricade.

[Brian Payne]

A combination of Bryan 45 and kellyn match descriptions fits the bill for me. Oh yeah! having it in the state of Minnesota would also be nice.

[SmittyFL]

If stages are worth 100 points each, there should not be any stages less than 45 sec-1 min. No 15 sec stages.

Just for my knowledge what's the reasoning behind this Kelly?

Also, where can I find Horner scoring information?

[Mbauer67]

My fantasy match would be a 4 day 17 stage event. Put togther with a collaboration by the following people

1. Pete Rensinger

2. Andy Horner

3. The Gibson family

4. Phil strator

5. ken Nelson

5-6 guns- rifle, SG, pistol, bolt gun, sub compact pistol, something full auto like an AK

Natural terrain and bay stages

Real obsticals

Very physical

Hard positions

High round count

At least 3 guns every stage

Perfect 70 deg weather

No rain or snow

Slugs, buck shot, everything

Stages that make you think before you shoot, like solve a rubics cube before you start

No prize table, just a momento that means something if you finish

Sponsor prizes distributed by random draw.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Mbauer67

[CJW]

If stages are worth 100 points each, there should not be any stages less than 45 sec-1 min. No 15 sec stages.

Just for my knowledge what's the reasoning behind this Kelly?

Not sure what Kelly's explanation is but, since I happen to agree, I see the problem being the relative value of mistakes/screwups. If the stage won in 15 seconds and the stage won in 45 seconds are both worth 100 points, then one target miss is going to put you way down on the quick stage (no matter how well you shot the rest) whereas you can still turn in a decent score with an otherwise excellent run on the longer stage.

For me, it comes down to making sure that one target does not have a disproportional effect on the entire match result. At Topton a couple years ago, Dean DeTurk dealt with this at the 3-Man 3-Gun by having the obviously fast stages worth only 50 points, and that worked out well.

[Bryan 45]

Horner scoring is two alphas to neutralize. A Charlie is a .5 second penalty, a delta is a 1.5 second penalty. Only one hit is still 5 seconds. So a paper target with a Charlie and a delta hit is a total of 2 seconds in penalties.

Steel targets over 100 yards also have a higher penalty value- 20 seconds.

Why the difference? It requires a little more aiming and knowledge of POI at closer ranges. 1/2 size paper targets also work great for rifle at 25-100 yards.

[HRider]

I like Kelly's ideas. When I posted earlier about a 240sec timeout, I was also trying to express what Kelly N and JJ were saying, that there shouldn't be any 15 sec stages, I would prefer that the stages be won in the 90-100sec range with a 240 sec timeout. Getting in and out of cars, negotiating Cooper tunnels, crawling under obstacles, shooting from moving platforms, utilizing drag dummies, etc. all take time and effort for the shooter. Some of these things take extra time to reset, so you have to be careful not to put too many things in one stage and back the match up.

Hurley

[StealthyBlagga]

I respectfully disagree with Kelly on the stage length/time issue - I like to see a diversity of stage times, and I like the stages to all have equal weight. This tests the fullest range of competitor skills and equipment reliability. Building a match entirely around long stages erodes the value of important fundamentals like a fast draw, fast pistol/rifle reloads, shooting on the move and "violence of action". Long stages are more forgiving for us fat, slow old men though (of which I am assuredly a charter member)

On the timeout question, we use 180 seconds as most shot timers typically roll over to zero after 200 seconds. This approach allows us to use the par time feature of the timer to remind the RO to stop the shooter.

Lastly, if you are running under USPSA rules, many of the things we do at outlaw matches will be prohibited by the rules. You can choose hit factor or time-plus scoring, but Horner and other such alternatives are likely off the table. Disappearing targets (like flipper clays) have to be NPM targets, meaning they often are not worth shooting at (you waste a lot of clays/$$$ by throwing them for nothing). Most restricting, USPSA rules allow the shooter to engage targets "as seen", meaning you will have to put a lot more effort into match setup, using elaborate vision barriers etc. - under outlaw rules, we can just use shooting boxes and ports, stipulating which targets can be shot from each position. The sketch below is the same stage but designed under the different rules, and illustrates one of my biggest beefs with current USPSA rules from a stage designer's perspective:

Outlaw version (shoot through Aperture A, B or C only)...

USPSA version (shoot as seen)...

Both stage designs present an identical competitive challenge, but the USPSA design is a LOT more work and resources to build, and looks like crap from an aesthetics perspective. I would like to see USPSA refine their wording to allow stage designers more freedom in this regard, at least for multigun.

Edited February 28, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[stonedudley]

Horner scoring is two alphas to neutralize. A Charlie is a .5 second penalty, a delta is a 1.5 second penalty. Only one hit is still 5 seconds. So a paper target with a Charlie and a delta hit is a total of 2 seconds in penalties.

Steel targets over 100 yards also have a higher penalty value- 20 seconds.

Why the difference? It requires a little more aiming and knowledge of POI at closer ranges. 1/2 size paper targets also work great for rifle at 25-100 yards.

So it's kind of like IDPA with the pistol? I agree with the rifle scoring but I don't like pistol scoring for that.

[slowsure]

I like shooting from cars/trucks but hate working stages that have cars/trucks for safety reasons. If you have have been hit from a rear view mirror or piece of trim you know what I'm talking about.

I like most all stages if someone spends more than five minutes thinking about the reason for shooting it......fun!

The best and most fun stages are always administered by a competent and courteous match staff/crew. If you don't have that what a buzz kill.

[ac4wordplay]

...

Lastly, if you are running under USPSA rules, many of the things we do at outlaw matches will be prohibited by the rules. You can choose hit factor or time-plus scoring, but Horner and other such alternatives are likely off the table. Disappearing targets (like flipper clays) have to be NPM targets, meaning they often are not worth shooting at (you waste a lot of clays/$$$ by throwing them for nothing)....

...

If I understood the above quote correctly, and the scoring/uselessness of thrown clays was tied to USPSA rules, then I'd like to offer a clarification:

If using USPSA rules and "hit factor" scoring, the statement is correct - disappearing targets (thrown clays) would be required to be NPM (no penalty mike) targets (and possibly not worth shooting).

But, if using USPSA rules and "time plus" scoring (as has been used at the last couple of USPSA MG Nationals), then 8.3.2.3 (USPSA MG rules) penalizes 10 seconds for a missed clay, and 8.3.2.4 penalizes an additional 5 seconds if the clay wasn't shot at. Also, 8.3.4 allows disappearing targets to be designated as "bonus" targets - which would be worth a reduction in stage time, and wouldn't be subject to either a miss penalty or a FTE (failure to engage) penalty. With the penalties (or the bonus), very few competitors would choose not to shoot at thrown clays. USPSA rules do allow stage designers to incorporate thrown clays in such a way that they are not useless or being wasted.

Aside from that, StealthyBlagga has some valid points that are worth consideration. And, if I misunderstood the quote, my apologies.

Respectfully,

ac

Edited February 28, 2014 by ac4wordplay

[Bryan 45]

So it's kind of like IDPA with the pistol? I agree with the rifle scoring but I don't like pistol scoring for that.

I don't know- I shot IDPA once about 12-15 years ago and never went back. I suppose the penalties could be built into Practiscore to score rifle and pistol targets differently, but it would be a little confusing. Not to mention that more traditional targets react much less to a 9mm in the Delta zone than they would a 223 in the Delta, but that's assuming the practical orgins and nature of our sport are still recognized.

Regarding stage times- I understand Stealthy's premise in testing skills. At that point, it becomes a question of why does someone shoot major matches? I know what I'm capable of doing, I don't need to be tested. I shoot major matches because it's fun and if a major has 9-100 second plus stages it's a lot more fun (to me) than 2-100 second stages, 4- 30 second stages, and 3-sub 20 second stages. Based on scheduling, it's much easier as a match director to avoid back-ups and delays if the stages are of similar times too.

[gose]

But, if using USPSA rules and "time plus" scoring (as has been used at the last couple of USPSA MG Nationals), then 8.3.2.3 (USPSA MG rules) penalizes 10 seconds for a missed clay, and 8.3.2.4 penalizes an additional 5 seconds if the clay wasn't shot at. Also, 8.3.4 allows disappearing targets to be designated as "bonus" targets - which would be worth a reduction in stage time, and wouldn't be subject to a FTE (failure to engage) penalty. With the penalties (or the bonus), very few competitors would choose not to shoot at thrown clays. USPSA rules do allow stage designers to incorporate thrown clays in such a way that they are not useless or being wasted.

I dont mind flying birds, but a 10s penalty is, IMHO, way too harsh when you consider the often erratic throwers because of placement, wind or other factors.

Penalizing missing a small flying bird the same way we do for a big static steel popper just doesnt seem right, especially if you have them on a short 20-30s stage.

A 3s bonus or 5s penalty (which I guess you cant do in USPSA) seems more appropriate.

[StealthyBlagga]

...

Lastly, if you are running under USPSA rules, many of the things we do at outlaw matches will be prohibited by the rules. You can choose hit factor or time-plus scoring, but Horner and other such alternatives are likely off the table. Disappearing targets (like flipper clays) have to be NPM targets, meaning they often are not worth shooting at (you waste a lot of clays/$$$ by throwing them for nothing)....

...

If I understood the above quote correctly, and the scoring/uselessness of thrown clays was tied to USPSA rules, then I'd like to offer a clarification:

If using USPSA rules and "hit factor" scoring, the statement is correct - disappearing targets (thrown clays) would be required to be NPM (no penalty mike) targets (and possibly not worth shooting).

But, if using USPSA rules and "time plus" scoring (as has been used at the last couple of USPSA MG Nationals), then 8.3.2.3 (USPSA MG rules) penalizes 10 seconds for a missed clay, and 8.3.2.4 penalizes an additional 5 seconds if the clay wasn't shot at. Also, 8.3.4 allows disappearing targets to be designated as "bonus" targets - which would be worth a reduction in stage time, and wouldn't be subject to a FTE (failure to engage) penalty. With the penalties (or the bonus), very few competitors would choose not to shoot at thrown clays. USPSA rules do allow stage designers to incorporate thrown clays in such a way that they are not useless or being wasted.

Aside from that, StealthyBlagga has some valid points that are worth consideration. And, if I misunderstood the quote, my apologies.

Respectfully,

ac

Yeah, the option of hit factor vs. time-plus scoring does confuse matters.

AC is correct that there are ways to effectively use disappearing targets under USPSA rules, but they have to be well thought out in the context of the stage design. An example of how NOT to do it was a stage at the 2013 multigun nationals that incorporated a fast clamshell rifle target activated by a pressure plate; the clamshell was so fast and risky it was just not worth shooting at, even for the top shooters... most of us shot the rest of the stage then walked contemptuously to the pressure plate to activate it and avoid a procedural. The clamshell target itself was completely pointless, only serving to make extra work for the setup crew, cause REF reshoots (of which we had several on our squad), and penalize a couple of less experienced folks that forgot to activate the plate after finishing the stage.

I indicated in an earlier post that you have to be very careful with time bonuses when using time-plus scoring because a fast shooter on a fast stage could conceivably produce a zero/negative stage time which cannot be computed to produce a valid stage score.

[Alaskapopo]

10 stages over 2 1/2 days. No slings on long guns. Rifle shots out to 500 yards, pistol to 100, shotgun slugs to 100, 2 3 gun stages 1 pistol only stage, 1 rifle only stage 1 long high round count shotgun only stage and 5 two gun stages. About a 50 50 mix of run and gun vs technical stages with barricades etc.

[MarkCO]

Arguments over rulesets are worthless. The rubber meets the road in stage design, pure and simple. A good designer who understands how a top pro, a 50% shooter and a new shooter will shoot a stage is more important than any ruleset.

Kelly's whole point was to maintain equitable balance between stages. If 5 seconds difference is 20% on one stage and 1% on another stage, the designer did not balance the stages enough.

Bonus targets are also worthless. If they are shootable, then they are required and not shooting them is the same as a penalty. If they are not shootable, it is a waste of time to put them there and everyone will skip them except a few stubborn or new shooters, then you are just penalizing to be mean.

Tests shooting skills, not trickery. Also, never try to slow down the "big dogs". That is just ignorance and a penalty on the new shooters.

[StealthyBlagga]

Arguments over rulesets are worthless. The rubber meets the road in stage design, pure and simple. A good designer who understands how a top pro, a 50% shooter and a new shooter will shoot a stage is more important than any ruleset.

Not really - the rules you choose have a significant impact on the effort required to build the match and on the competitor experience as I tried to explain in my post above. There is a reason USPSA matches were unpopular before the introduction of time-plus scoring. Of course, once you have your rules set, it is (should be) the same for everyone, so in that sense it is irrelevant. In any case, the Area 6 reference leads me to assume this will be a USPSA match.

[MarkCO]

Yes really. I ran the Noveske match using USPSA rules, those who shot it had a great experience and some of the top shooters said it was the best match they had shot in 5 years. USPSA matches were unpopular for many reasons (including stage design), not just the ruleset.

But we are off in the weeds on Shannon's thread, so I will stop.

[kellyn]

If stages are worth 100 points each, there should not be any stages less than 45 sec-1 min. No 15 sec stages.

Just for my knowledge what's the reasoning behind this Kelly?

Not sure what Kelly's explanation is but, since I happen to agree, I see the problem being the relative value of mistakes/screwups. If the stage won in 15 seconds and the stage won in 45 seconds are both worth 100 points, then one target miss is going to put you way down on the quick stage (no matter how well you shot the rest) whereas you can still turn in a decent score with an otherwise excellent run on the longer stage.

For me, it comes down to making sure that one target does not have a disproportional effect on the entire match result. At Topton a couple years ago, Dean DeTurk dealt with this at the 3-Man 3-Gun by having the obviously fast stages worth only 50 points, and that worked out well.

This! I understand StealthyBlagga's point and it is not without merit but short stages place WAY more point value on each target.

[ac4wordplay]

... An example of how NOT to do it was a stage at the 2013 multigun nationals that incorporated a fast clamshell rifle target activated by a pressure plate; the clamshell was so fast and risky it was just not worth shooting at, even for the top shooters... most of us shot the rest of the stage then walked contemptuously to the pressure plate to activate it and avoid a procedural. The clamshell target itself was completely pointless, only serving to make extra work for the setup crew, cause REF reshoots (of which we had several on our squad), and penalize a couple of less experienced folks that forgot to activate the plate after finishing the stage.

...

Which stage was this? I can only remember one disappearing/bonus clamshell - for rifle on stage 9 (?). Were there others that I've forgotten? If we're thinking of the same stage, we each have different impressions of it. I saw a lot of people shoot that stage and the vast majority chose to shoot the bonus target. Some got confused and missed it (it was after a potentially frustrating "long range" rifle position, and part of an intentionally confusing array with a non-disappearing drop-turner and a static target). Some chose not to shoot at it. Every top shooter (except one who had a brain-fart and ran by the entire array) shot at the disappearing/bonus target. I thought it (the bonus target concept) worked well for that array - the targets were close and fairly easy, but there was a no-shoot or two in there, so if a competitor tried to run it fast with the bonus they were flirting with a possible no-shoot penalty). IIRC it was a 5 second bonus, and easily worth it for many people. Risk vs. reward. The clamshell (cable?) did suffer from some REF towards the end of the match, causing some re-shoots and slowing things down. I think JM shot the first half of that stage three times. That's a danger with all sorts of equipment though.

[Alaskapopo]

With our match we agreed that each stage should have a similar round count. We set it up with between 25 to 35 rounds for each and each stage is worth 100 points. I feel that if you make the stages of equal weight then they should have a fairly equal round count.

Pat