8 Shot rule CAUTION

[Bosshoss]

I just finished taking the USPSA level 1 RO class this weekend, after letting my RO rating lapse several years ago. Jay Worden was the instructor.
This was the first class that he has taught since the rule changes.
We covered the new rule changes and I asked him several questions about revolver and the main thing I think every revolver shooter should be aware of has to do with major matches and declaring Major or Minor.
Many shooters have said that if you want to wait until you see the courses of fire to decide which gun to shoot(6 or 8) sign up for major and if you decide to shoot 8 shot the chrono will put you in 8 minor when you get to it. This is WRONG.
Jay said if you declare major on your match entry and then to decide to shoot 8 minor on the day of the match when you shoot the first stage with your 8 shot gun when you shoot your 7th shot with out reloading you will be bumped to OPEN CLASS not 8 minor. He said if you declare Major the rules state NO MORE THAN 6 SHOTS WITHOUT A RELOAD. It won't move you to 8 minor.
You will need to change your major declaration to minor at stats before you fire your first shot.
I know I declared major for most of the matches I have signed up for so far this year but I will have to change it if the courses of fire favor the 8 shot, and yes I know every match will favor the 8 shot.
I wonder if the Stats person has any idea what they are in for at the nationals as 40 or 50 people might want to change their PF a few minutes before the match starts

[Carmoney]

Just because Jay said that with an authoritative tone doesn't necessarily mean he is right. But presuming he is RM at Nationals again this year, we can assume that's the way the rule will be enforced there. Thanks for the heads-up.

I would not count on Nationals favoring the 8-shot. If there was ever a time where they might decide to keep the 6-round revolvers in play, it will be at PASA at a stand-alone Nats where it won't affect the other divisions. Just like they make sure the 8-major SS 1911s always have the advantage over the 10-minor SS 1911s.

[varminter22]

So why are the stages (for the Revolver National) a secret?

Or do they plan to post the stages anytime soon?

[MustangGreg66]

Just because Jay said that with an authoritative tone doesn't necessarily mean he is right. But presuming he is RM at Nationals again this year, we can assume that's the way the rule will be enforced there. Thanks for the heads-up.

The way the USPSA rules are written, any violation of declared division/PF moves the shooter to OPEN. An L10 shooter with more than 10 rounds in the gun at start gets bumped to OPEN, not Limited. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is. 6.2.5.1

Interestingly, 6.2.5 says "... When a competitor fails to declare a specific division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor's equipment..." So maybe the answer is don't declare a division? I don't think online apps allow for that, and you'd probably get a phone call or email from stats if you left it blank on a paper app.

So, good to know of you wheel gunners. Declare correct division before the first shot fired.

[ZackJones]

Ah man there goes my secret strategy to get rid of all of the 8-shot-that-declared-major-shooters from sectional and area matches .

Thanks for calling this to our attention.

[BHill]

Thanks for the heads up Bosshoss. Not sure it will make any difference to me in the short run but it will at some point! Thanks again.

[thermobollocks]

That seems like an awful lot of trouble. I would rather spend the effort getting A's quicker with minor.

[JakeMartens]

I just finished taking the USPSA level 1 RO class this weekend, after letting my RO rating lapse several years ago. Jay Worden was the instructor.

This was the first class that he has taught since the rule changes.

We covered the new rule changes and I asked him several questions about revolver and the main thing I think every revolver shooter should be aware of has to do with major matches and declaring Major or Minor.

Many shooters have said that if you want to wait until you see the courses of fire to decide which gun to shoot(6 or 8) sign up for major and if you decide to shoot 8 shot the chrono will put you in 8 minor when you get to it. This is WRONG.

Jay said if you declare major on your match entry and then to decide to shoot 8 minor on the day of the match when you shoot the first stage with your 8 shot gun when you shoot your 7th shot with out reloading you will be bumped to OPEN CLASS not 8 minor. He said if you declare Major the rules state NO MORE THAN 6 SHOTS WITHOUT A RELOAD. It won't move you to 8 minor.

You will need to change your major declaration to minor at stats before you fire your first shot.

I know I declared major for most of the matches I have signed up for so far this year but I will have to change it if the courses of fire favor the 8 shot, and yes I know every match will favor the 8 shot.

I wonder if the Stats person has any idea what they are in for at the nationals as 40 or 50 people might want to change their PF a few minutes before the match starts

[Gregg K]

So, good to know of you wheel gunners. Declare correct division before the first shot fired.

We have all declared the right division allready (Revolver).

[mcb]

So, good to know of you wheel gunners. Declare correct division before the first shot fired.

We have all declared the right division allready (Revolver).

At the revolver nationals how would they bump you to Open. That division is not recognized at that match? Going to be lonely division.

[alecmc]

So, good to know of you wheel gunners. Declare correct division before the first shot fired.

We have all declared the right division allready (Revolver).

At the revolver nationals how would they bump you to Open. That division is not recognized at that match? Going to be lonely division.

guaranteed 1st place

Edited February 17, 2014 by alecmc

[JakeMartens]

Nope I finished 3rd open division at Single Stack Nationals 2 years ago

[Bosshoss]

Nope I finished 3rd open division at Single Stack Nationals 2 years ago

Sorry Jake I couldn't resist

[John Z Sr]

Sorry, this just reminds me of "let's pass it so we can see what's in it"

[revoman]

Did you win a plaque or trophy? LOL

[pskys2]

The simplest would be to state nothing or Minor, there's no provision on the Nats Entry as to 8 shot minor, just minor. That way you can declare Major, at least before you start, if you want to change. I'm planning on bringing my 625 loaded Minor as a back up, as I'm sure if you start 8 minor, you won't have the option of switching to being scored as 6 major in a backup gun.

Wonder if an Open competitor has ever declared minor and then hit Major at the Chrono? If so could you change it at that point? Probably never came up in any major match.

Edited February 18, 2014 by pskys2

[gp100man]

Can

Just because Jay said that with an authoritative tone doesn't necessarily mean he is right. But presuming he is RM at Nationals again this year, we can assume that's the way the rule will be enforced there. Thanks for the heads-up.

The way the USPSA rules are written, any violation of declared division/PF moves the shooter to OPEN. An L10 shooter with more than 10 rounds in the gun at start gets bumped to OPEN, not Limited. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is. 6.2.5.1

Interestingly, 6.2.5 says "... When a competitor fails to declare a specific division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor's equipment..." So maybe the answer is don't declare a division? I don't think online apps allow for that, and you'd probably get a phone call or email from stats if you left it blank on a paper app.

So, good to know of you wheel gunners. Declare correct division before the first shot fired.

I can understand if you declare one division and then starting shooting a gun for a different division, e.g. the L v.s. L10 example above. But can NO ONE change their division between the time you send in your application and you actually start shooting? LIke if a guy registered to shoot Production sells his gun or it breaks a day before the match, can't he change what division he is shooting? I can understand the headaches it can cause if a bunch of folks rushed the stats table, but how about the rule was something like, your last chance to make any changes was at the time you picked up your score sheets and registered? After that, tough. I don't expect that I will be bringing two guns and deciding just prior, but i would like the flexibility to change if I needed to (gun not working, out of ammo, just a whim, etc)

Steve

[Tom E]

The new rules are clear: "maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload if Major PF declared, 8 if minor PF declared". If you're going to shoot more than six rds before you reload you best DECLARE minor.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Tom E

[gp100man]

The new rules are clear: "maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload if Major PF declared, 8 if minor PF declared". If you're going to shoot more than six rds before you reload you best DECLARE minor.

Yeah, but can you change Major to Minor or Minor to Major the morning of the match? Is that prohibited? It sounds like it is, but I want to be sure.

Thanks,

Steve

[Tom E]

Yeah, but can you change Major to Minor or Minor to Major the morning of the match? Steve

No, it has to be done 30 days before the match and on the night of a full moon.

[Koppi]

You have the choice to change to major or minor or to what ever other division you want before you fire your first round. Nothing on the sign up sheet is written in stone. Your declaration means nothing, really, unless the crono breaks or is not used for some reason before you shoot your ammo through it. Than whatever your declaration is that stands for the match. If you shot and your ammo didn't make it or was sub-minor that also would stand as long as the crono was calibrated before you shot. This just happened at the FL Open.

You could take your (minor) 8 shooter to the first stage and fire your first round and up to six rounds, than decide to change guns (if its first ok'ed by the RM) to your six shooter. You of course would still be shooting minor for the entire match. If you started with your six shooter than changed your mind, mid-match or (had a break down) and (if its first ok'ed by the RM) you could change to your 8 shooter. Than, you would if you had crono'ed already be required before the end of the match to crono again with the new gun, vis-a-vis if you please.

I wonder how many people will walk the stages in the morning to find out which to shoot 6/8? Will they than go change their category?

I really don't think you have to tell the stat's people anything at all. When you crono, they will change it to whatever you are major, minor or sub-minor if your unlucky, from the score sheet turned into them by the crono stage.

If I'm wrong please advise.

[rgkeller]

Registration is the night before at match hotel.

[varminter22]

Lots of local and major matches post the stages well before the match for shooters to peruse.

So why are the Rev Nat'ls stages not being posted? Or perhaps there is a plan to post them as soon as they are finalized?

In this case, posting the stages might go a long ways in helping shooters decide what revolver to bring - especially those arriving by commercial airline. And alleviate the mass last-minute shooter changes.

[RevolverJockey]

Just because Jay said that with an authoritative tone doesn't necessarily mean he is right. But presuming he is RM at Nationals again this year, we can assume that's the way the rule will be enforced there. Thanks for the heads-up.

The way the USPSA rules are written, any violation of declared division/PF moves the shooter to OPEN. An L10 shooter with more than 10 rounds in the gun at start gets bumped to OPEN, not Limited. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is. 6.2.5.1

Interestingly, 6.2.5 says "... When a competitor fails to declare a specific division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor's equipment..." So maybe the answer is don't declare a division? I don't think online apps allow for that, and you'd probably get a phone call or email from stats if you left it blank on a paper app.

So, good to know of you wheel gunners. Declare correct division before the first shot fired.

Maybe I am just not seeing it but where in the rules does it say a PF violation results in moving to Open? I see where it says equipment and an ambiguous "other requirements" but this means chrono? Every time someone declared major in a match in SS, Limited 10, Limited or Revolver and failed chrono they were moved to open? I don't play that close with PF so it has never mattered to me the enforcement of this particular rule.

Interestingly enough in 6.2.5.1 ( the same section the above is mentioned ), it says a competitor failing to meet the requirements will be "placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score." I would read this as no one at standalone revolver nationals gets bumped into Open Division as there is no Open. Any violation of division requirements or equipment rules would result in no score being recorded as if they were not there, dropping the total number of competitors. Hasn't that always been the way? A DQ stays on the roster, failed chrono is like you never showed up?

Lee

Edited February 18, 2014 by RevolverJockey

[JakeMartens]

Just because Jay said that with an authoritative tone doesn't necessarily mean he is right. But presuming he is RM at Nationals again this year, we can assume that's the way the rule will be enforced there. Thanks for the heads-up.

The way the USPSA rules are written, any violation of declared division/PF moves the shooter to OPEN. An L10 shooter with more than 10 rounds in the gun at start gets bumped to OPEN, not Limited. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is. 6.2.5.1

Interestingly, 6.2.5 says "... When a competitor fails to declare a specific division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor's equipment..." So maybe the answer is don't declare a division? I don't think online apps allow for that, and you'd probably get a phone call or email from stats if you left it blank on a paper app.

So, good to know of you wheel gunners. Declare correct division before the first shot fired.

Maybe I am just not seeing it but where in the rules does it say a PF violation results in moving to Open? I see where it says equipment and an ambiguous "other requirements" but this means chrono? Every time someone declared major in a match in SS, Limited 10, Limited or Revolver and failed chrono they were moved to open? I don't play that close with PF so it has never mattered to me the enforcement of this particular rule.

Interestingly enough in 6.2.5.1 ( the same section the above is mentioned ), it says a competitor failing to meet the requirements will be "placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score." I would read this as no one at standalone revolver nationals gets bumped into Open Division as there is no Open. Any violation of division requirements or equipment rules would result in no score being recorded as if they were not there, dropping the total number of competitors. Hasn't that always been the way? A DQ stays on the roster, failed chrono is like you never showed up?

Lee

Go sub minor and you shoot for fun, did that at production nationals last year.....